From chrisw at nipltd.com Wed Nov 1 08:38:21 2000 From: chrisw at nipltd.com (Chris Withers) Date: Sun Aug 10 16:40:34 2008 Subject: [Zope-book] Re: [Zope] Zope Book Beta References: <39FE2133.F00ED435@digicool.com> <39FEB1B0.46B76306@nipltd.com> <39FF2110.AF8151CC@digicool.com> Message-ID: <3A001CCD.1A207435@nipltd.com> Amos Latteier wrote: > > Chris Withers wrote: > > > > There a PDF of it anywhere? > > Not yet. I think that O'Reilly doesn't want us to produce any more > public versions of the book until it is published. I'm double checking > with them right now. Take a look at the copyright verbage on each book > page to see what I'm talking about. Kinda tough to check out/read/find mistakes in a book that's only available as a set of html pages that aren't full text searchable.... *grumble* Chris From jasonic at nomadicsltd.com Wed Nov 1 09:34:43 2000 From: jasonic at nomadicsltd.com (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Sun Aug 10 16:40:34 2008 Subject: [Zope-book] Re: [Zope] Zope Book Beta References: <39FE2133.F00ED435@digicool.com> <39FEB1B0.46B76306@nipltd.com> <39FF2110.AF8151CC@digicool.com> <3A001CCD.1A207435@nipltd.com> Message-ID: <00d001c04410$e091f040$c3090740@megapathdsl.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Withers > > Not yet. I think that O'Reilly doesn't want us to produce any more > > public versions of the book until it is published. I'm double checking > > with them right now. Take a look at the copyright verbage on each book > > page to see what I'm talking about. > > Kinda tough to check out/read/find mistakes in a book that's only > available as a set of html pages that aren't full text searchable.... This is a really good point. Just as open source benefits from real-time peer review, so do manuscripts get better when fresh eyes and minds and go over them. How about 'releasing' a PDF / HTML Doc with header/footers clearly marked: 'Preview Review copy for Copy-Editing use only. Not for general public or commercial distribution' The number of people who are likely to 'bootleg' the Zope book must be tiny. Most will want to see the book sales thrive, so that Zope grows and gets the wider recognition it deserves.And to save time and money when developing Zope projects. For such sophisticated 'free' software, a well written, well edited book is a trivial price to pay. The issue is how to get the best final copy to the printer in timely manner. Peer review now by skilled expert readers is huge advantage to be tapped. No matter how good OReilly are as publishers, I doubt they have many Zope experts in-house at ORA... Because there are not yet that many in the world! Most people are too busy anyway to be of much help. Anyone who wants to help adn has the ability to do so should be engaged now not deterred. Everyone will benefit if you act quickly now. Final stages of proofreading and tweaking are time consuming adn take many hands and many heads to get right. When done thoroughly this is the difference which makes a difference, especially for technical books. Look at how much hideous fast junk is out there in bookstores now. Look at how many books are a waste of paper and time and money, simply because they were not properly checked and tuned. good luck and best wishes - Jason From dan at sol.control.com Wed Nov 1 11:29:24 2000 From: dan at sol.control.com (Dan L. Pierson) Date: Sun Aug 10 16:40:34 2008 Subject: [Zope-book] Re: [Zope] Zope Book Beta In-Reply-To: "Jason Cunliffe"'s message of "Wed, 1 Nov 2000 09:34:43 -0500" References: <39FE2133.F00ED435@digicool.com> <39FEB1B0.46B76306@nipltd.com> <39FF2110.AF8151CC@digicool.com> <3A001CCD.1A207435@nipltd.com> <00d001c04410$e091f040$c3090740@megapathdsl.net> Message-ID: "Jason Cunliffe" writes: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chris Withers > > > Kinda tough to check out/read/find mistakes in a book that's only > > available as a set of html pages that aren't full text searchable.... > > This is a really good point. > > Just as open source benefits from real-time peer review, so do manuscripts > get better when fresh eyes and minds and go over them. > > How about 'releasing' a PDF / HTML Doc with header/footers clearly marked: > 'Preview Review copy for Copy-Editing use only. Not for general public or > commercial distribution' I like this suggestion. There are three of us (ranging from novice to pretty experienced) here that were planning to print out copies of PDF and go over them at home, none of us has the time to sit at work and read/review the whole thing on a web browser. From bill at noreboots.com Wed Nov 1 10:48:12 2000 From: bill at noreboots.com (Bill Anderson) Date: Sun Aug 10 16:40:34 2008 Subject: [Zope-book] Re: [Zope] Zope Book Beta References: <39FE2133.F00ED435@digicool.com> <39FEB1B0.46B76306@nipltd.com> <39FF2110.AF8151CC@digicool.com> <3A001CCD.1A207435@nipltd.com> <00d001c04410$e091f040$c3090740@megapathdsl.net> Message-ID: <3A003B3C.FB374827@noreboots.com> "Dan L. Pierson" wrote: > > "Jason Cunliffe" writes: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Chris Withers > > > > > Kinda tough to check out/read/find mistakes in a book that's only > > > available as a set of html pages that aren't full text searchable.... > > > > This is a really good point. > > > > Just as open source benefits from real-time peer review, so do manuscripts > > get better when fresh eyes and minds and go over them. > > > > How about 'releasing' a PDF / HTML Doc with header/footers clearly marked: > > 'Preview Review copy for Copy-Editing use only. Not for general public or > > commercial distribution' > > I like this suggestion. There are three of us (ranging from novice to > pretty experienced) here that were planning to print out copies of PDF > and go over them at home, none of us has the time to sit at work and > read/review the whole thing on a web browser. Same Here. I am a much better proofreader/reviewer when I can see it on paper, and was eagerly looking forward to a pdf. Also, IMO, it is easier to be able to reference page numbers for some things, rather than just Chapter number. -- E PLURIBUS LINUX From fred at ontosys.com Wed Nov 1 12:13:55 2000 From: fred at ontosys.com (Fred Yankowski) Date: Sun Aug 10 16:40:34 2008 Subject: [Zope-book] Re: [Zope] Zope Book Beta In-Reply-To: References: <39FE2133.F00ED435@digicool.com> <39FEB1B0.46B76306@nipltd.com> <39FF2110.AF8151CC@digicool.com> <3A001CCD.1A207435@nipltd.com> <00d001c04410$e091f040$c3090740@megapathdsl.net> Message-ID: <20001101111355.C40182@enteract.com> I agree completely that the Zope Book beta will get more reviewers, and better feedback to the authors, if it is available as PDF. The authors of the "Planning Extreme Programming" book made their draft available as a PDF well in advance of publication and got lots of thoughtful feedback as a result (based on what I saw on the XP email list). Here's a blurb in the "To Reviewers" section at the very beginning: Feel free to pass on this draft to anyone who might read it and comment. We aren't terribly worried that you will use the text in its current form and not buy the book when it comes out. If you do, the mistakes we have deliberately seeded herein will come back to haunt you. Better all around if you just buy the book when it comes out, hey? I printed the draft and now plan to buy the book, now that it's finally out. (I just hope that the book is printed on better paper than the "Extreme Programming Explained" book. Addison-Wesley sure cuts costs on their book paper -- I presume they pass that savings on to us.) -- Fred Yankowski fred@OntoSys.com tel: +1.630.879.1312 Principal Consultant www.OntoSys.com fax: +1.630.879.1370 OntoSys, Inc 38W242 Deerpath Rd, Batavia, IL 60510, USA From michel at digicool.com Wed Nov 1 15:27:28 2000 From: michel at digicool.com (Michel Pelletier) Date: Sun Aug 10 16:40:34 2008 Subject: [Zope-book] Re: [Zope] Zope Book Beta References: <39FE2133.F00ED435@digicool.com> <39FEB1B0.46B76306@nipltd.com> <39FF2110.AF8151CC@digicool.com> <3A001CCD.1A207435@nipltd.com> <00d001c04410$e091f040$c3090740@megapathdsl.net> <20001101111355.C40182@enteract.com> Message-ID: <3A007CB0.44FBD995@digicool.com> Fred Yankowski wrote: > > I agree completely that the Zope Book beta will get more reviewers, > and better feedback to the authors, if it is available as PDF. I agree, but this is completely out of our hands and we must focus more on content issues at this point then distribution issues. All of these problems will get solved in the comming months, they just won't get solved today. -Michel From michel at digicool.com Wed Nov 1 15:38:33 2000 From: michel at digicool.com (Michel Pelletier) Date: Sun Aug 10 16:40:34 2008 Subject: [Zope-book] Re: [Zope] Zope Book Beta References: <39FE2133.F00ED435@digicool.com> <39FEB1B0.46B76306@nipltd.com> <39FF2110.AF8151CC@digicool.com> <3A001CCD.1A207435@nipltd.com> <00d001c04410$e091f040$c3090740@megapathdsl.net> Message-ID: <3A007F49.FED103F2@digicool.com> Jason Cunliffe wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chris Withers > > > > Not yet. I think that O'Reilly doesn't want us to produce any more > > > public versions of the book until it is published. I'm double checking > > > with them right now. Take a look at the copyright verbage on each book > > > page to see what I'm talking about. > > > > Kinda tough to check out/read/find mistakes in a book that's only > > available as a set of html pages that aren't full text searchable.... > > This is a really good point. > > Just as open source benefits from real-time peer review, so do manuscripts > get better when fresh eyes and minds and go over them. > > How about 'releasing' a PDF / HTML Doc with header/footers clearly marked: > 'Preview Review copy for Copy-Editing use only. Not for general public or > commercial distribution' This is a good idea and probably a good compromise, but this would require us taking the time to negotiate it with O'Reilly and engineer a stx-pdf converter and pre-empt alot of work we have lined up for the book and other documentation efforts. With the existing setup, we don't have to worry about this for a couple months and we don't have to stir the shit with O'Reilly. > The number of people who are likely to 'bootleg' the Zope book must be tiny. I agree, and honestly, Amos and I don't care about the bootlegging or book sales revenue. It is also not our job to enforce the rules; I would chuckle to hear about people 'bootlegging' ilicit PDF copies of the book. > Most will want to see the book sales thrive, Yeah, NY Times bestseller list!!! > so that Zope grows and gets the > wider recognition it deserves.And to save time and money when developing > Zope projects. > For such sophisticated 'free' software, a well written, well edited book is > a trivial price to pay. > > The issue is how to get the best final copy to the printer in timely manner. Well... from your perspective (and ours) but from O'Reilly's I think they're woried about *who* the first person to print that best final copy is. Those are the people they are worried about bootlegging the book, not you, they _know_ you'll buy a copy. ;) If we open content it now, someone could beat ORA to the shelves by a week and undercut a sizable percentage of sales and all they would ahve to do is put ORAs name on the cover, but they don't get any money. I feel your pain on all issues. A couple more months and this will all go away. -Michel From jasonic at nomadicsltd.com Wed Nov 1 16:30:39 2000 From: jasonic at nomadicsltd.com (Jason Cunliffe) Date: Sun Aug 10 16:40:34 2008 Subject: [Zope-book] Re: [Zope] Zope Book Beta References: <39FE2133.F00ED435@digicool.com> <39FEB1B0.46B76306@nipltd.com> <39FF2110.AF8151CC@digicool.com> <3A001CCD.1A207435@nipltd.com> <00d001c04410$e091f040$c3090740@megapathdsl.net> <3A007F49.FED103F2@digicool.com> Message-ID: <002e01c0444a$fb99c040$c3090740@megapathdsl.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: Michel Pelletier > > Just as open source benefits from real-time peer review, so do manuscripts > > get better when fresh eyes and minds and go over them. > > > > How about 'releasing' a PDF / HTML Doc with header/footers clearly marked: > > 'Preview Review copy for Copy-Editing use only. Not for general public or > > commercial distribution' > > This is a good idea and probably a good compromise, but this would > require us taking the time to negotiate it with O'Reilly and engineer a > stx-pdf converter and pre-empt alot of work we have lined up for the > book and other documentation efforts. With the existing setup, we don't > have to worry about this for a couple months and we don't have to stir > the shit with O'Reilly. This is truly nuts... Sounds a like you guys are tired and just want it done and printed now. So please just let us know whom we should contact directly at OReilly. This really is not 'stiring the shit'. Publishing staff are always over worked especially copy-editors. They will appreciate some timely comments, from some [free] Zope experts to help them get their work done quicker and better. Hell, they can even use it on the blurb to help sell the book and get some nice 'OpenSource reaches the Book Publishing World'-type reviews !! I find it hard to believe given the significant role OReilly have in openSource, Python etc that they would not be happy to embrace a __tiny__ experiment in this direction. > > The issue is how to get the best final copy to the printer in timely manner. > > Well... from your perspective (and ours) but from O'Reilly's I think > they're woried about *who* the first person to print that best final > copy is. Those are the people they are worried about bootlegging the > book, not you, they _know_ you'll buy a copy. ;) If we open content it > now, someone could beat ORA to the shelves by a week and undercut a > sizable percentage of sales and all they would ahve to do is put ORAs > name on the cover, but they don't get any money. > > I feel your pain on all issues. A couple more months and this will all > go away. A couple of months from now is exactly when the pain will be felt! You open the book and go ooops! damn how'd we miss that one..? Then the reviews come and say "Been really looking forwards to this milestone book for a long time. It is well written by two members of the core Zope team but unfortunately...." Please don't confuse controlled easy accesss for willing proofreaders, with public licensing and e-distribution models. Those CAN be sorted out later. Just as employees and freelancers working for Publishers have access to manuscripts, so should and can designated members of the Zope community. These are not annonymous strangers. I have been reading and printing out various chapters of the book from http://www.zope.org/Members/michel/ZB/ over the past month. Then saved out a bunch of the HTML files and printed to PDF. Took 'em round the corner for cheap fast b+ printout and had comb binding put on then. It was worth the $15 for print+binding just to be able to scan on planes and while I was travelling. It already gave me a much better feeling and understnding of Zope :-) - Jason ___________________________________________________________ Jason CUNLIFFE = NOMADICS['Interactive Art and Technology'] From jan at haul.de Sun Nov 5 11:53:53 2000 From: jan at haul.de (Jan H. Haul) Date: Sun Aug 10 16:40:34 2008 Subject: [Zope-book] Re: [Zope] Zope Book Beta References: <39FE2133.F00ED435@digicool.com> <39FEB1B0.46B76306@nipltd.com> <39FF2110.AF8151CC@digicool.com> <3A001CCD.1A207435@nipltd.com> <00d001c04410$e091f040$c3090740@megapathdsl.net> <20001101111355.C40182@enteract.com> Message-ID: <3A0590A1.F16821D6@haul.de> Fred Yankowski wrote: > > I agree completely that the Zope Book beta will get more reviewers, > and better feedback to the authors, if it is available as PDF. A valid point. I do not care about the format that much. But what I care about is a clear method of referencing the text, to the line or paragraph level, so that we can get comments and corrections to the authors/copyeditors efficiently. A PDF *with page and line numbers* would fit the bill nicely. As would a HTML file with paragraph numbers (as HTML comments, maybe?). The point is that we should be able to give meaningful feedback, like "page 147, line 15: there should be their" (a totally made-up example, do not go hunting for that one). It just does not do to quote full sentences and have the copyeditor search for all that stuff. Too much wasted time on both ends. Cheers, Jan From michel at digicool.com Mon Nov 6 01:52:42 2000 From: michel at digicool.com (Michel Pelletier) Date: Sun Aug 10 16:40:34 2008 Subject: [Zope-book] Re: [Zope] Zope Book Beta References: <39FE2133.F00ED435@digicool.com> <39FEB1B0.46B76306@nipltd.com> <39FF2110.AF8151CC@digicool.com> <3A001CCD.1A207435@nipltd.com> <00d001c04410$e091f040$c3090740@megapathdsl.net> <20001101111355.C40182@enteract.com> <3A0590A1.F16821D6@haul.de> Message-ID: <3A06553A.16BFA684@digicool.com> "Jan H. Haul" wrote: > > The point is that we should be able to give meaningful feedback, > like "page 147, line 15: there should be their" (a totally > made-up example, do not go hunting for that one). > It just does not do to quote full sentences and have the > copyeditor search for all that stuff. Too much wasted time on > both ends. Jan, We have very little experience in documentation delivery and maintenance. It's sad but true. We are however working to resolve the problem. Please take a look at the documentation process wiki, where we have a section for discussing delivery issues: http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/DocumentationProcess/FrontPage Look under 'CurrentIssues'. Please place any suggestions or ideas you have there. -Michel From webmaven at lvcm.com Fri Nov 17 13:06:33 2000 From: webmaven at lvcm.com (Michael Bernstein) Date: Sun Aug 10 16:40:34 2008 Subject: [Zope-book] Manuscripts? Message-ID: <3A1573A9.5E357E20@lvcm.com> Has the tech review draft been delivered to O'Reilly yet? The email they sent me indicated that it would be delivered to them 'by mid November'. Cheers, Michael Bernstein. From michel at digicool.com Sun Nov 19 14:22:07 2000 From: michel at digicool.com (Michel Pelletier) Date: Sun Aug 10 16:40:34 2008 Subject: [Zope-book] Manuscripts? References: <3A1573A9.5E357E20@lvcm.com> Message-ID: <3A18285F.6F773CA@digicool.com> Michael Bernstein wrote: > > Has the tech review draft been delivered to O'Reilly yet? Yes, but they bounced it back to us. I am sending them another revision today. > The email they sent me indicated that it would be delivered > to them 'by mid November'. Yep. ;) I know you guys are anxious to get started, so am I. When I send our editor the revised tech draft, I'll ask her to make PDFs for you to begin tech reviewing. Thanks! -Michel