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From jim at zope.com Thu Jul 1 17:55:27 2004 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Thu Jul 1 17:55:39 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Summary of #zope-org, July 1, IRC chat Message-ID: <40E4884F.8070507@zope.com> There was a meeting held July 1 on the #zope-org IRC channel from about 11 am US/Eastern time until about noon. We now have several volunteers signed up to help. We decided to limit the amount of formality and organization until we actually needed. The primary modes of communication will consist of the zope-web@zope.org mailing list, the #zope-web channel on irc.freenode.net, and some area of zope.org itself, where we'll gather information about procedures, tips, rules, etc. We've tentatively divided the areas of effort into: - Content Management (we don't like this name) This includes: - Organizing content - Approving - Perhaps maintenance/gardening - Software -- obviously making the software (uh) better - Operations - Making sure things are running - Monitoring FWIW, I'm inclined to think we should combine the software and operations activities. I've volunteered to be the pointy-haired boss (PHB) for zope.org for a while. (This is not a power grab. If anyone else wants this job, or would like me to spend time doing something else, I'm willing to relinquish power. ;) I currently have the following PHB volunteers (for some definition of volunteer) for the three areas described above: - Mark Pratt for content - Brian Lloyd for software - and myself for operations Note that PHBs are officially too dumb to do anything themselves. So signing up to be a PHB doesn't imply technical work. It implies a willingness to try to convince others to do work and to keep track of what's being done. Brian summarized the setup on zope.org: "Hardware: Andrew and Rich have moved zope.org onto better machines at Zope Corp's AT&T datacenter. that change was for managability and logistics, not to solve any perf problems" The current HW configuration is: cvs.zope.org: 2.3GHz x 2, 2GB memory, 33GB HD This machine hosts CVS, SVN and some infrastructure to support the zope.org mailing lists. cache1.zope.org: 1.9GHz x 1, 1.2GB memory, 38GB HD This machine runs the squid cache. app1.zope.org: 1GHz x 2, 2GB memory, 33GB HD This machine runs the zope.org application servers. storage1.zope.org: 2.3GHz x 2, 1GB memory, 34GB HD This machine runs the zope.org storage server. software is... more custom than I'd prefer ;) Note that if you want to volunteer to help out, you can get more information at the well-hidden page: http://www.zope.org/About. As mentioned above, we can use less organization than this page suggests. I'll update the page to reflect the agreed-upon disorganization. ;) Legal agreements There are two: - Members and content managers need to agree with the general terms of service: http://dev.zope.org/TOS/TermsOfService There's a form at the bottom of that page to indicate your agreement. We need this to let anyone do things like review content or work on the site organization. Note that this TOS document is, with permission, closely modeled after the TOS agreement at SourceForge. - People who help out with the software need to sign an non-disclosure agreement: http://dev.zope.org/About/agreements/NDA/ We need a "wet" signature for this, meaning that you need to fill it out, sign it and either fax or mail it to Zope Corp. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From chris at simplistix.co.uk Fri Jul 2 02:58:39 2004 From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers) Date: Fri Jul 2 02:58:54 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] QueuedCatalog not being processed... Message-ID: <40E5079F.5000900@simplistix.co.uk> Hi All, Trying to publish some objects people had submitted, I kept on getting a "WorkflowError". Chatting with Michael Bernstein, he suggested that the QueuedCatalog was backing up and had 19 unprocessed items in it. Apparently a cron job wasn't running that was supposed to be running but apparently it was being fixed. So anyway, those items went through. I came back today and tried to publish another object, same thing. With my shiny new manager access I hada look at the QueuedCatalog: 19 items in queue again. I pushed the process queue button, they alla vanished. My publish didn't error when I re-tried it, but the pending view still said one object was pending. Off I went to the QueuedCatalog: 1 object in queue. I pushed the button, it went away. What's going on here? This didn't need to be done a week ago. What's changed? Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk From chris at simplistix.co.uk Fri Jul 2 03:47:29 2004 From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers) Date: Fri Jul 2 03:47:49 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] QueuedCatalog not being processed... In-Reply-To: <36A43F57D545C61DF36A4B6A@[192.168.0.102]> References: <40E5079F.5000900@simplistix.co.uk> <36A43F57D545C61DF36A4B6A@[192.168.0.102]> Message-ID: <40E51311.5060103@simplistix.co.uk> Andreas Jung wrote: > That's what I mentioned already yesterday in the zope.org chat. Sorry, I didn't even know about the chat until half way through ti so I must have missed this. What was the outcome of your mentioning it? Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk From chris at simplistix.co.uk Fri Jul 2 04:09:38 2004 From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers) Date: Fri Jul 2 04:09:40 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] QueuedCatalog not being processed... In-Reply-To: <830D1BA9CAC1926A52E1374D@[192.168.0.102]> References: <40E5079F.5000900@simplistix.co.uk> <36A43F57D545C61DF36A4B6A@[192.168.0.102]> <40E51311.5060103@simplistix.co.uk> <830D1BA9CAC1926A52E1374D@[192.168.0.102]> Message-ID: <40E51842.6060202@simplistix.co.uk> Andreas Jung wrote: >> What was the outcome of your mentioning it? >> > nothing :-) Fanstastic ;-S Well, perhaps this thread will spur some action from someone... Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk From rob.page at zope.com Fri Jul 2 06:53:47 2004 From: rob.page at zope.com (Rob Page) Date: Fri Jul 2 06:54:30 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] QueuedCatalog not being processed... In-Reply-To: <40E5079F.5000900@simplistix.co.uk> References: <40E5079F.5000900@simplistix.co.uk> Message-ID: <181B38D8-CC16-11D8-886D-000393D58818@zope.com> On Jul 2, 2004, at 2:58 AM, Chris Withers wrote: > [...] > What's going on here? > > This didn't need to be done a week ago. What's changed? Odds are the need for the cron tab entry wasn't documented and didn't get moved to the new machine(s). Who on zweb has shell access? Have we set that up yet? Jim? -- Rob Page V: 540.361.1710 Zope Corporation F: 703.995.0412 From jim at zope.com Fri Jul 2 09:52:55 2004 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Fri Jul 2 09:53:03 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] QueuedCatalog not being processed... In-Reply-To: <181B38D8-CC16-11D8-886D-000393D58818@zope.com> References: <40E5079F.5000900@simplistix.co.uk> <181B38D8-CC16-11D8-886D-000393D58818@zope.com> Message-ID: <40E568B7.6000001@zope.com> Rob Page wrote: > > On Jul 2, 2004, at 2:58 AM, Chris Withers wrote: > >> > > [...] > >> What's going on here? >> >> This didn't need to be done a week ago. What's changed? > > > Odds are the need for the cron tab entry wasn't documented and didn't > get moved to the new machine(s). Who on zweb has shell access? Have we > set that up yet? I doubt it. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From andrew at zope.com Fri Jul 2 10:03:21 2004 From: andrew at zope.com (Andrew Sawyers) Date: Fri Jul 2 10:04:52 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] QueuedCatalog not being processed... In-Reply-To: <40E568B7.6000001@zope.com> References: <40E5079F.5000900@simplistix.co.uk> <181B38D8-CC16-11D8-886D-000393D58818@zope.com> <40E568B7.6000001@zope.com> Message-ID: <40E56B29.1080401@zope.com> Jim Fulton wrote: > Rob Page wrote: > >> >> On Jul 2, 2004, at 2:58 AM, Chris Withers wrote: >> >>> >> >> [...] >> >>> What's going on here? >>> >>> This didn't need to be done a week ago. What's changed? >> >> >> >> Odds are the need for the cron tab entry wasn't documented and didn't >> get moved to the new machine(s). Who on zweb has shell access? Have >> we set that up yet? > > > > I doubt it. > > Jim > I searched high and low when Brian thought this was the case - nothing to be found. Jens instists zope.org never relied on queued catalogs. I don't have the cycles to go dig more atm - but I'll speak to him again over the weekend. Who else would know? Jefferey maybe? Andrew From jim at zope.com Fri Jul 2 10:15:48 2004 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Fri Jul 2 10:15:56 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Two groups Message-ID: <40E56E14.6090700@zope.com> In my summary yesterday, I suggested that we should divide the effort into two teams, not three: - Content (current PHB: Mark Pratt) - System (current PHB: me, but looking for a replacement) The systems team will work on both operations and software issues. Any objections? Any volunteers for systems pointy-haired boss? :) Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From jim at zope.com Fri Jul 2 10:20:44 2004 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Fri Jul 2 10:20:52 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] QueuedCatalog not being processed... In-Reply-To: <40E56B29.1080401@zope.com> References: <40E5079F.5000900@simplistix.co.uk> <181B38D8-CC16-11D8-886D-000393D58818@zope.com> <40E568B7.6000001@zope.com> <40E56B29.1080401@zope.com> Message-ID: <40E56F3C.50807@zope.com> Andrew Sawyers wrote: > Jim Fulton wrote: > >> Rob Page wrote: >> >>> >>> On Jul 2, 2004, at 2:58 AM, Chris Withers wrote: >>> >>>> >>> >>> [...] >>> >>>> What's going on here? >>>> >>>> This didn't need to be done a week ago. What's changed? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Odds are the need for the cron tab entry wasn't documented and didn't >>> get moved to the new machine(s). Who on zweb has shell access? Have >>> we set that up yet? >> >> >> >> >> I doubt it. >> >> Jim >> > I searched high and low when Brian thought this was the case - nothing > to be found. Jens instists zope.org never relied on queued catalogs. I > don't have the cycles to go dig more atm - but I'll speak to him again > over the weekend. Who else would know? Jefferey maybe? One of the significant challenges with this project is that there is a scarecety of knowledge, this despite my constant whining that nothing was writtem down. Please keep in mind that I am the PHB. I'm like sargent Shultz. I know nothing. (It's my job, you should repect that. ;) Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From jim at zope.com Fri Jul 2 10:47:56 2004 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Fri Jul 2 10:48:02 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] System Documentation Message-ID: <40E5759C.3050108@zope.com> It was decided that we should keep documentaion about the running of zope.org on zope.org. I think that this makes sense for all content-related info and, perhaps, for some systems info, however, much system information needs to be kept somewhere else because: - it needs to be available when the system is down, and - it may contain information that we don't want to publish for security reasons. Also, despite the fact that we decided to have one list to discuss zope.org management, I think that there needs to be a list for discussing aspects of zope.org operations that we don't want to be public. I suggest the following: - I'll create a private repository for folks who have sined the zope.org nda at svn+ssh://svn.zope.org/repos/zope.org-system. We will check information about the system configuration and systems-operations procedures there. - I'll create a private mailing list on mail.zope.org for the same purpose. Check-in messages from the amove repository. As long as information isn't sensitive, discussion should stay on zope-web. For example, discussions of software issues, features, etc. should stay there. If there are no objections, I'll get this started early next week. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From mark at zopemag.com Sun Jul 4 22:30:26 2004 From: mark at zopemag.com (Mark) Date: Sun Jul 4 22:31:59 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope.Org Docs Page Draft Message-ID: <466E488B-CE2B-11D8-9E24-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> Hi, I have uploaded a pdf of how I would like to reorganize the Docs page ASAP. Grab it here: http://zope.org/Members/beehive/docspageV1.pdf/file_view Here are some specific things I would like to see changed: Documentation Highlights This section should be deleted. Because for one thing everything linked to is very, very, very old. Instead in the PDF you will find that Online Help has been moved to the top. Note: After we have revised the Docs Section we might want to think about how we can make Zope's help system a bit more useful -- including a direct link to the Zope Docs section (which at least I couldn't find). The Zope Documentation section should either be called Zope.org Documentation or reflect the name and link to external resources as well. The PDF includes two sample outside links one is to the SuperGuide for Newbies, the other to the ZopeWiki. In the PDF the link to the Zope Administrator's Guide Project. This project has no active maintainer and when people go to read more about it find out that the project is basically stalled We can link to it some other place. We need a well written overview of where and how people can contribute. (Contributing/Community Work). This should be *everyones* top priority as it is in everybodies interest to find more volunteers to help with the tasks ahead. Commercial Documentation Recommend we remove the title (its kind of redundant) and instead split the current content into two parts. - Articles - Books Since Zope Corp already takes the time to provide a list of Zope books we should just link to this page (saves a lot of screen real estate). Lots of new Zope and Plone books coming so this is important to keep up to date. From the current doc page there are two links to articles. One in the left side navigation the other is part of the "Documentation Highlights" called "Featured Articles". One is a dated list of articles that have been published all over the web (a great idea) the other is a series of articles written by employees of Zope Corp. In the PDF you can see a link to ZopeMag and to a list of articles published by companies world-wide (which should be actively maintained). I have the feeling that outside of ZopeMag less articles are being published these days about Zope. I'd like to figure out a way to introduce a featured article and help drive some traffic to publishers who write about Zope. Ideally the traffic sent their way will encourage them to publish even more articles about Zope in the future. That's it for now. Awaiting your comments. Cheers, Mark -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 2652 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-web/attachments/20040704/75a23a07/attachment.bin From jens at dataflake.org Mon Jul 5 01:16:09 2004 From: jens at dataflake.org (Jens Vagelpohl) Date: Mon Jul 5 01:16:22 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope.Org Docs Page Draft In-Reply-To: <466E488B-CE2B-11D8-9E24-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> References: <466E488B-CE2B-11D8-9E24-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> Message-ID: <6CAE2CFC-CE42-11D8-8B74-000D9368D272@dataflake.org> I don't see the need for that "Articles" section. I fully understand that you would like more exposure for the ZopeMag, but I believe one reference (like the one for that "SuperGuide for Newbies") is plenty. That "Articles" section is nothing but free advertising for a for-pay periodical. jens From lists at andreas-jung.com Mon Jul 5 01:26:30 2004 From: lists at andreas-jung.com (Andreas Jung) Date: Mon Jul 5 01:26:28 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope.Org Docs Page Draft In-Reply-To: <6CAE2CFC-CE42-11D8-8B74-000D9368D272@dataflake.org> References: <466E488B-CE2B-11D8-9E24-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> <6CAE2CFC-CE42-11D8-8B74-000D9368D272@dataflake.org> Message-ID: <94A9A2EEB79B7816D65FC86B@[192.168.0.102]> --On Montag, 5. Juli 2004 1:16 Uhr -0400 Jens Vagelpohl wrote: > I don't see the need for that "Articles" section. I fully understand that > you would like more exposure for the ZopeMag, but I believe one reference > (like the one for that "SuperGuide for Newbies") is plenty. That > "Articles" section is nothing but free advertising for a for-pay > periodical. > +1 From robert at redcor.ch Mon Jul 5 01:49:32 2004 From: robert at redcor.ch (robert rottermann) Date: Mon Jul 5 01:49:46 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope.Org Docs Page Draft In-Reply-To: <6CAE2CFC-CE42-11D8-8B74-000D9368D272@dataflake.org> References: <466E488B-CE2B-11D8-9E24-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> <6CAE2CFC-CE42-11D8-8B74-000D9368D272@dataflake.org> Message-ID: <40E8EBEC.8040004@redcor.ch> hoho There are other articles that could be listed here. Arent there ? It would be great to have such list some place, and an easy way to contribute. Robert Jens Vagelpohl wrote: > I don't see the need for that "Articles" section. I fully understand > that you would like more exposure for the ZopeMag, but I believe one > reference (like the one for that "SuperGuide for Newbies") is plenty. > That "Articles" section is nothing but free advertising for a for-pay > periodical. > > jens > > _______________________________________________ > Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web > > From mark at zopemag.com Mon Jul 5 03:28:58 2004 From: mark at zopemag.com (Mark) Date: Mon Jul 5 03:30:28 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope.Org Docs Page Draft In-Reply-To: <6CAE2CFC-CE42-11D8-8B74-000D9368D272@dataflake.org> References: <466E488B-CE2B-11D8-9E24-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> <6CAE2CFC-CE42-11D8-8B74-000D9368D272@dataflake.org> Message-ID: Hello Jens, I don't think you "get it". Yes it mentions ZopeMag (because it is the *only* Zope Magazine after all -- why shouldn't it be mentioned?). But the "For a lists of articles published by Magazines and website throughout the world click here." has not one iota to do with ZopeMag -- see: http://www.zope.org/Resources/Articles/ for an example of what someone (don't know who) previously tried to start for Zope.org with links to lots of Zope articles in Magazines, websites world-wide. Articles by their very nature cover material that you will not find in Books and are a valuable resource. On Jul 5, 2004, at 1:16 AM, Jens Vagelpohl wrote: > I don't see the need for that "Articles" section. I fully understand > that you would like more exposure for the ZopeMag, but I believe one > reference (like the one for that "SuperGuide for Newbies") is plenty. > That "Articles" section is nothing but free advertising for a for-pay > periodical. Even if I wasn't involved in a Magazine about Zope I would strongly argue for a balance of "contemporary" resources (articles) and reference (books). I'd also like to point out that ZopeMag a "for-pay" Magazine publishes much of its content for free. For example this quarter 4 articles/product/reviews/guides will be released for free. So consider me biased but I would argue that we have a lot more articles/guides etc that are worthwhile letting the community know about -- but the SuperGuide for Newbies is the only one that makes sense to link to from this page. As for the SuperGuide for Newbies being all about exposure -- if their was a single relatively up-to-date Introduction for Zope Newbies that wasn't published by ZopeMag I would want it immediately added under the New Users heading feel free to point more out to this list or take the time to write one. I'm still looking for volunteers to help write the Overview for Contributing/Community Work for example. Cheers, Mark From mark at zopemag.com Mon Jul 5 03:33:28 2004 From: mark at zopemag.com (Mark) Date: Mon Jul 5 03:34:14 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope.Org Docs Page Draft In-Reply-To: <40E8EBEC.8040004@redcor.ch> References: <466E488B-CE2B-11D8-9E24-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> <6CAE2CFC-CE42-11D8-8B74-000D9368D272@dataflake.org> <40E8EBEC.8040004@redcor.ch> Message-ID: <9BBAF3E2-CE55-11D8-B1D7-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> Hi, On Jul 5, 2004, at 1:49 AM, robert rottermann wrote: > hoho > There are other articles that could be listed here. Arent there ? > It would be great to have such list some place, and an easy way to > contribute. Exactly! I can't stress how important it is to have an up-to-date list of articles about Zope. Some people will even see this as an indicator regarding adoption / investing into a techology. If nobody is writing about it -- is it relevant? Cheers, Mark From chris at simplistix.co.uk Mon Jul 5 03:40:56 2004 From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers) Date: Mon Jul 5 03:41:11 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope.Org Docs Page Draft In-Reply-To: <466E488B-CE2B-11D8-9E24-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> References: <466E488B-CE2B-11D8-9E24-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> Message-ID: <40E90608.5090800@simplistix.co.uk> Hi Mark, Mark wrote: > I have uploaded a pdf of how I would like to reorganize the Docs page ASAP. > > Grab it here: > > http://zope.org/Members/beehive/docspageV1.pdf/file_view Well, the only significant change I can see here is a couple of high profile links to your paid-for publications ;-) > Here are some specific things I would like to see changed: > > Documentation Highlights > > This section should be deleted. Because for one thing everything linked > to is very, very, very old. ...and so are a lot of the other docs. This section needs *maintaining*, not deleting. > Instead in the PDF you will find that Online Help has been moved to the > top. Since both the hurt^whelp system and online tutorial are in pretty poor shape, is this really what we want to do? > Note: After we have revised the Docs Section we might want to think > about how we can make Zope's help system a bit more useful -- including > a direct link to the Zope Docs section (which at least I couldn't find). This needs to be done *carefully*. If you put links in a product, you restrict yourself from re-organising the site, and should really put permenant re-directing links if you *ever* move stuff. Again, not sure we want to commit to this right now... > The Zope Documentation > > section should either be called Zope.org Documentation Why?! > or reflect the > name and link to external resources as well. Agreed. > The PDF includes two sample > outside links one is to the SuperGuide for Newbies, I just had a scan through of this. It seems pretty thin on content useful to somone coming to zope :-( About the last three-sections-but-one actually seem to provide useful information to get started, and that's mainly in the form of a link to a VERY outdated how-to by Chris McDonough. (Zope 2.1.2? Hello?!) The Backup/Install section is probably the most accurate, but even that doesn't explain what is and does explain whether people should stop Zope before backing up, or whther it's safe to back it up while running. I also plants the common myth that "all objects are stored in one file, data.fs", which is a common reason for people to NOT choose Zope, despite it being a fallacy. > the other to the > ZopeWiki. Now here's a cool external resource I'd like to referred to more :-) > In the PDF the link to the Zope Administrator's Guide Project. This > project has no active maintainer and when people go to read more about > it find out that the project > is basically stalled We can link to it some other place. A lot of the doc projects are stalled. I'm loath to just remove them, I'd like to see a note put on the stalled ones saying "help us maintain this!" instead. > We need a well written overview of where and how people can contribute. > (Contributing/Community Work). This should be *everyones* top priority > as it is in everybodies > interest to find more volunteers to help with the tasks ahead. Agree with this... > Commercial Documentation > > Recommend we remove the title (its kind of redundant) Nope, it makes a clear distinction between "free" resources (in many different senses of the word) and non-free ones and as such is pretty imporant. > and instead split > the current content into two parts. > > - Articles > - Books ...I totally agree with the other comments on this so far ;-) This doesn't NEED two sections. > Since Zope Corp already takes the time to provide a list of Zope books > we should just link to this page (saves a lot of screen real estate). Agreed. > Lots of new Zope and Plone books coming so this is important to keep up > to date. ...but if it's on Zope.com, how do we do that? I'd suggest a Zope Books page on Zope.org and move that into the left-column-navigation. > From the current doc page there are two links to articles. One in the > left side navigation the other is part of the "Documentation Highlights" > called "Featured Articles". One is a dated list of articles that have > been published all over the web (a great idea) "Zope Articles", for anyone who spent 10 minutes trying to find this ;-) (that left column nav also needs a good kicking...) Yes it is a great idea, needs maintenence though. 1999 is hardly current... > the other is a series of > articles written by employees of Zope Corp. Really? I don't see a single ZC employee in that list. Those articles are old, but still verymuch relevent. They should probably drop in a more complete how-to's section... > In the PDF you can see a link to ZopeMag Now there's a suprise ;-) > and to a list of articles > published by companies world-wide (which should be actively maintained). By who? And for how long? > I have the feeling that outside of ZopeMag less articles are being > published these days about Zope. Well, I think you're slightly biased there ;-) > I'd like to figure out a way to > introduce a featured article and help drive some traffic to publishers > who write about Zope. Like ZopeMag? ;-) > That's it for now. Awaiting your comments. I'm kinda split on this. Not to waste words, it appears you're trying to do little more than drive traffic to ZopeMag. Doing that alone isn't exactly helpful, especially given the quality of the articles I've seen in ZopeMag so far... However, provided you commit to maintaining the docs section in a fair and timely manner, I have no problem with you doing this. You do the work, you get the benefits. What I'm worried about is you doing a quick dusting of the docs section which nets you some high profile links, after which the docs section see no more active maintenence from your good self ;-) There appears to be past precedent for this too... Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk From mark at zopemag.com Mon Jul 5 04:18:33 2004 From: mark at zopemag.com (Mark) Date: Mon Jul 5 04:19:44 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope.Org Docs Page Draft In-Reply-To: <40E90608.5090800@simplistix.co.uk> References: <466E488B-CE2B-11D8-9E24-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> <40E90608.5090800@simplistix.co.uk> Message-ID: Hello Chris, > >> I have uploaded a pdf of how I would like to reorganize the Docs page >> ASAP. >> Grab it here: >> http://zope.org/Members/beehive/docspageV1.pdf/file_view > > Well, the only significant change I can see here is a couple of high > profile links to your paid-for publications ;-) I'm sorry I wasn't trying to make significant changes. This is V1. The goal was to reduce, simplify and put something out there. I added two links (one of which was to ZWiki) the other ZopeMag link is already on Zope.org anyway and tried to move things around so that we get more space. The scope was limited -- but I took a first step. I'd like to encourage other people to come up with their own drafts or to give some more suggestions / opinions about what else we should do or how to structure the information. >> Here are some specific things I would like to see changed: >> Documentation Highlights >> This section should be deleted. Because for one thing everything >> linked >> to is very, very, very old. > > ...and so are a lot of the other docs. This section needs > *maintaining*, not deleting. Agreed. But I think it is a really bad idea to link so prominently to a resource which hasn't been updated since 2001 and the most recent comment being from 2002 only to report that it has officially stalled. I'm concerned about the first impressions here. >> Instead in the PDF you will find that Online Help has been moved to >> the top. > > Since both the hurt^whelp system and online tutorial are in pretty > poor shape, is this really what we want to do? Well somebody thought it was important to point out before. I assume it is. >> Note: After we have revised the Docs Section we might want to think >> about how we can make Zope's help system a bit more useful -- >> including a direct link to the Zope Docs section (which at least I >> couldn't find). > > This needs to be done *carefully*. If you put links in a product, you > restrict yourself from re-organising the site, and should really put > permenant re-directing links if you *ever* move stuff. Again, not sure > we want to commit to this right now... I certainly wouldn't want to change the URL for the docs page. >> The Zope Documentation >> section should either be called Zope.org Documentation > > Why?! > >> or reflect the name and link to external resources as well. > > Agreed. I guess that answers your why? >> The PDF includes two sample outside links one is to the SuperGuide >> for Newbies, > > I just had a scan through of this. It seems pretty thin on content > useful to somone coming to zope :-( About the last > three-sections-but-one actually seem to provide useful information to > get started, and that's mainly in the form of a link to a VERY > outdated how-to by Chris McDonough. (Zope 2.1.2? Hello?!) The > Backup/Install section is probably the most accurate, but even that > doesn't explain what is and does explain whether people > should stop Zope before backing up, or whther it's safe to back it up > while running. I also plants the common myth that "all objects are > stored in one file, data.fs", which is a common reason for people to > NOT choose Zope, despite it being a fallacy. Well thanks for that feedback. Part II is due next month and will of course continue with what we started. Each part is about 15 to 20 pages. We will publish part III later this year. (these will all be free) > > the other to the >> ZopeWiki. > > Now here's a cool external resource I'd like to referred to more :-) Sounds like we have an agreement :-) >> In the PDF the link to the Zope Administrator's Guide Project. This >> project has no active maintainer and when people go to read more >> about it find out that the project >> is basically stalled We can link to it some other place. > > A lot of the doc projects are stalled. I'm loath to just remove them, > I'd like to see a note put on the stalled ones saying "help us > maintain this!" instead. On the Contributing/Community Work page -- absolutely! >> We need a well written overview of where and how people can >> contribute. >> (Contributing/Community Work). This should be *everyones* top >> priority as it is in everybodies >> interest to find more volunteers to help with the tasks ahead. > > Agree with this... > >> Commercial Documentation >> Recommend we remove the title (its kind of redundant) > > Nope, it makes a clear distinction between "free" resources (in many > different senses of the word) and non-free ones and as such is pretty > imporant. Difference of opinion -- but I honestly don't care. >> and instead split the current content into two parts. >> - Articles >> - Books > > ...I totally agree with the other comments on this so far ;-) > This doesn't NEED two sections. Totally disagree with the comments -- see the my answer to Jens. >> Since Zope Corp already takes the time to provide a list of Zope >> books we should just link to this page (saves a lot of screen real >> estate). > > Agreed. > >> Lots of new Zope and Plone books coming so this is important to keep >> up to date. > > ...but if it's on Zope.com, how do we do that? I'd suggest a Zope > Books page on Zope.org and move that into the left-column-navigation. Don't care where the page is located -- just that it exists and be kept up-to-date. >> From the current doc page there are two links to articles. One in >> the left side navigation the other is part of the "Documentation >> Highlights" called "Featured Articles". One is a dated list of >> articles that have been published all over the web (a great idea) > > "Zope Articles", for anyone who spent 10 minutes trying to find this > ;-) > (that left column nav also needs a good kicking...) > Yes it is a great idea, needs maintenence though. 1999 is hardly > current... Obviously. > >> the other is a series of articles written by employees of Zope Corp. > > Really? I don't see a single ZC employee in that list. > Those articles are old, but still verymuch relevent. > They should probably drop in a more complete how-to's section... Well at the time of writing they were to my knowledge either employees or independant contractors working for ZC -- but who cares? The idea was cool. >> and to a list of articles published by companies world-wide (which >> should be actively maintained). > > By who? And for how long? I'd love to help maintain this list because I want to know about and mention any articles for example in our other "non for-pay" ZopeMag resource: http://weekly.zopemag.com >> I have the feeling that outside of ZopeMag less articles are being >> published these days about Zope. > > Well, I think you're slightly biased there ;-) My intention is certainly not to be biased -- I was sharing a perception. Was actually hoping to see people post lots of links to this mailinglist of recent (less than 3 months) articles about Zope so that we can start updating the list. >> I'd like to figure out a way to introduce a featured article and help >> drive some traffic to publishers who write about Zope. > > Like ZopeMag? ;-) Let me ask you a question: Do you know of any reason why articles that ZopeMag publishes for free should not mentioned along with Zope articles in other publications? I was actually thinking a lot about other publications -- who hopefully are writing lots of articles about Zope. It would suck if ZopeMag was the only magazine writing about Zope. >> That's it for now. Awaiting your comments. > > I'm kinda split on this. Not to waste words, it appears you're trying > to do little more than drive traffic to ZopeMag. Doing that alone > isn't exactly helpful, especially given the quality of the articles > I've seen in ZopeMag so far... I'm kind of confused about your statement. There already is a link to ZopeMag in the existing docs section of Zope.org -- if you think that my motivation for volunteering to coordinate the Docs section of Zope.org is to add a link to the SuperGuide your crazy. As for the quality of ZopeMag articles I'm happy to report that I get a lot of email from subscribers saying that they should have subscribed "a long time ago". And slowly but assuredly people are sharing their experiences with emails like this one to the mailinglists: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.web.zope.plone.user/19386/ match=zopemag We are getting more articles submissions from our subscribers (Chris Curvey is one of them) who frequently are building on / referencing articles that other ZopeMag authors have written. Don't think they would be / could be doing this if we didn't publish a few decent articles here and there? But if you think that ZopeMag could use some improvement -- we are always looking for more writers and would love to see you write for us sometime. > However, provided you commit to maintaining the docs section in a fair > and timely manner, I have no problem with you doing this. You do the > work, you get the benefits. Thanks. Who can I negotiate with about the benefits? I'm not seeing many other than that i might have some fun and can contribute to a site that I really have an emotional attachment to. I can't stand seeing Zope.org in the current state that it is. See my previous emails to this mailinglist. > What I'm worried about is you doing a quick dusting of the docs > section which nets you some high profile links, after which the docs > section see no more active maintenence from your good self ;-) There > appears to be past precedent for this too... > Don't really know what you are referring to -- but in my experience it is a common problem with OS projects that people contribute something and then lose interest / have other obligations. I'm confident that I can make a contribution to the current effort because much of it relates to what I do in my regular day job. Cheers, Mark From lists at andreas-jung.com Mon Jul 5 11:56:08 2004 From: lists at andreas-jung.com (Andreas Jung) Date: Mon Jul 5 11:56:00 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] How to handle unreleated content/images? Message-ID: <437CAFCB7CF9EB6CE92A5391@[192.168.0.102]> Hi, a catalog search on zope.org finds about 400 images in private state. Some random samples showed that most of the stuff seems to be unrelated to zope.org and Zope (from family and cat pics to p0rn and fantasy pics). How shall we treat such content? According to the member faq, they can be removed by the reviewers without prior notice. Any comments? Andreas From jens at dataflake.org Mon Jul 5 12:29:36 2004 From: jens at dataflake.org (Jens Vagelpohl) Date: Mon Jul 5 12:29:46 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] How to handle unreleated content/images? In-Reply-To: <437CAFCB7CF9EB6CE92A5391@[192.168.0.102]> References: <437CAFCB7CF9EB6CE92A5391@[192.168.0.102]> Message-ID: <80FA9A79-CEA0-11D8-BD86-000D9368D272@dataflake.org> IMHO if there is truly objectionable content such as porn I would remove the content *and* disable the account at the same time. jens On Jul 5, 2004, at 11:56 AM, Andreas Jung wrote: > Hi, > > a catalog search on zope.org finds about 400 images in private state. > Some random samples showed > that most of the stuff seems to be unrelated to zope.org and Zope > (from family and cat pics to p0rn > and fantasy pics). How shall we treat such content? According to the > member faq, they can be removed > by the reviewers without prior notice. > > Any comments? > > Andreas > _______________________________________________ > Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web From simon at joyful.com Mon Jul 5 13:35:26 2004 From: simon at joyful.com (Simon Michael) Date: Mon Jul 5 13:38:55 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope.Org Docs Page Draft In-Reply-To: <466E488B-CE2B-11D8-9E24-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> References: <466E488B-CE2B-11D8-9E24-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> Message-ID: <40E9915E.9080704@joyful.com> My two cents - the draft looks like a nice improvement. I would only reword the Articles section. Mark your links to zopemag here and on zopewiki come across with a marketing feel that is a bit of a turnoff - zopemag is great and of course should be linked, but in a more neutral way. The newbies superguide is in the right place. I'd be inclined to have howtos, faqs, articles, books sections on an equal footing - why should Articles & Books stand out more than the rest. Thanks for tackling this thankless task, please don't stop. :) From mark at zopemag.com Mon Jul 5 14:16:05 2004 From: mark at zopemag.com (Mark) Date: Mon Jul 5 14:17:22 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope.Org Docs Page Draft In-Reply-To: <40E9915E.9080704@joyful.com> References: <466E488B-CE2B-11D8-9E24-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> <40E9915E.9080704@joyful.com> Message-ID: <6175D57C-CEAF-11D8-A7BA-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> Hello Simon, On Jul 5, 2004, at 1:35 PM, Simon Michael wrote: > My two cents - the draft looks like a nice improvement. Thanks. > I would only reword the Articles section. Mark your links to zopemag > here and on zopewiki come across with a marketing feel that is a bit > of a turnoff - zopemag is great and of course should be linked, but in > a more neutral way. Well then why don't you or someone else write a revised paragraph for the Articles section? That way it can't be biased towards ZopeMag. > The newbies superguide is in the right place. I'd be inclined to have > howtos, faqs, articles, books sections on an equal footing - why > should Articles & Books stand out more than the rest. I don't have a problem putting anything on equal footing -- its a matter of space on the first page. Take books for example by the end of the year I'm sure we will have over 10 Books in print. A seperate page like the one on Zope.com makes more sense. As for How-to's, FAQs by all means we should add these. What would help me is if some people could write a paragraph and include a few links for each an I will add it to the Graffle/PDF. > Thanks for tackling this thankless task, please don't stop. :) Appreciate the encouragement. Looking forward to working with you and figuring out for example where linking to specific sections of the ZWiki makes sense, Cheers, Mark From michael at d2m.at Mon Jul 5 14:46:36 2004 From: michael at d2m.at (Michael Haubenwallner) Date: Mon Jul 5 14:50:41 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] zope.org volunteering Message-ID: i signed zope.org TOS agreement last thursday, just after the chat. could a kind soul contact me and give me some directions please ;) for a start i'd like to participate in - make the syndication feeds work again and more stable - create a suite of rss-feeds for different areas - adapt the way how new and changed content is presented to zope.org visitors regards michael haubenwallner From simon at joyful.com Mon Jul 5 15:05:57 2004 From: simon at joyful.com (Simon Michael) Date: Mon Jul 5 15:09:26 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope.Org Docs Page Draft In-Reply-To: <6175D57C-CEAF-11D8-A7BA-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> References: <466E488B-CE2B-11D8-9E24-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> <40E9915E.9080704@joyful.com> <6175D57C-CEAF-11D8-A7BA-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> Message-ID: <40E9A695.3080608@joyful.com> > figuring out for example where linking to specific sections of the ZWiki The zopewiki, or just the wiki preferably. Wiki spelling and nomenclature gets confusing. :) From simon at joyful.com Mon Jul 5 15:11:13 2004 From: simon at joyful.com (Simon Michael) Date: Mon Jul 5 15:14:44 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope.Org Docs Page Draft In-Reply-To: <6175D57C-CEAF-11D8-A7BA-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> References: <466E488B-CE2B-11D8-9E24-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> <40E9915E.9080704@joyful.com> <6175D57C-CEAF-11D8-A7BA-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> Message-ID: > Well then why don't you or someone else write a revised paragraph for > the Articles section? I couldn't come up with something quickly. I would push it as-is, maybe take out the first zopemag sentence, and keep refining it based on suggestions here. Having it online adds motivation. Later, -Simon From mark at zopemag.com Mon Jul 5 15:30:55 2004 From: mark at zopemag.com (Mark) Date: Mon Jul 5 15:32:11 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope.Org Docs Page Draft In-Reply-To: References: <466E488B-CE2B-11D8-9E24-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> <40E9915E.9080704@joyful.com> <6175D57C-CEAF-11D8-A7BA-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> Message-ID: Hello again, On Jul 5, 2004, at 3:11 PM, Simon Michael wrote: >> Well then why don't you or someone else write a revised paragraph for >> the Articles section? > > I couldn't come up with something quickly. I would push it as-is, > maybe take out the first zopemag sentence, and keep refining it based > on suggestions here. Having it online adds motivation. That seems a bit too much like clear cutting to me. If there is a dedicate magazine IMHO it should be pointed out. Here is a alternative shortened version of the Articles paragraph: ZopeMag is a Magazine published quarterly about Zope. For a list of articles published by Magazines and websites throughout the world click click here. Speaking of the articles. Can someone create a content type that allows any user on Zope.org to submit these types of links? Cheers, Mark -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 968 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-web/attachments/20040705/09a51a8c/attachment.bin From mark at zopemag.com Mon Jul 5 15:42:25 2004 From: mark at zopemag.com (Mark) Date: Mon Jul 5 15:43:15 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] zope.org volunteering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <71023688-CEBB-11D8-9FC6-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> Hello Michael, Thanks for volunteering. I'd like to use you as kind of an example volunteer / use case. If people are privately emailing you from Zope Corp please share this with us as I'd like to here what the procedure is and get this written up in the Contributing / Community Work overview for Zope.org Systems. If I can help you graffle / diagram some of your ideas of how new and changed content could be presented to zope.org visitors let me know. Cheers, Mark On Jul 5, 2004, at 2:46 PM, Michael Haubenwallner wrote: > i signed zope.org TOS agreement last thursday, just after the chat. > could a kind soul contact me and give me some directions please ;) > > for a start i'd like to participate in > - make the syndication feeds work again and more stable > - create a suite of rss-feeds for different areas > - adapt the way how new and changed content is presented > to zope.org visitors > > regards > michael haubenwallner > > _______________________________________________ > Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web > > From jim at zope.com Tue Jul 6 10:17:48 2004 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Tue Jul 6 10:17:53 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] IMPORTANT: be in #zope-web when working on zope.org Message-ID: <40EAB48C.7050707@zope.com> If you do any non-trivial work on zope.org, including content reorganization and, especially, systems work, please join the #zope-web channel and let people kow what you are doing. This is mandatory. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From jim at zope.com Tue Jul 6 11:12:16 2004 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Tue Jul 6 11:12:26 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] zope.org volunteering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40EAC150.1080900@zope.com> Michael Haubenwallner wrote: > i signed zope.org TOS agreement last thursday, just after the chat. Great > could a kind soul contact me and give me some directions please ;) > > for a start i'd like to participate in > - make the syndication feeds work again and more stable > - create a suite of rss-feeds for different areas > - adapt the way how new and changed content is presented > to zope.org visitors Hm, let's see. This sounds mainly like content work. In which case, you need to coordinate with Mark and, otherwise, post ideas here, which you have. If we need to change the software, you'll probably need file-system access. For that, you'll need to sign the non-disclosure agreement. Alternatively, someone else might be able to make changes for you. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From jim at zope.com Tue Jul 6 11:13:51 2004 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Tue Jul 6 11:13:58 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Updated www.zope.org/About Message-ID: <40EAC1AF.5000006@zope.com> To bring it into line with our decision to simplify the organization. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From mark at zopemag.com Tue Jul 6 14:08:26 2004 From: mark at zopemag.com (Mark) Date: Tue Jul 6 14:09:44 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] zope.org volunteering In-Reply-To: <40EAC150.1080900@zope.com> References: <40EAC150.1080900@zope.com> Message-ID: <7A706726-CF77-11D8-8272-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> Hello Jim, On Jul 6, 2004, at 11:12 AM, Jim Fulton wrote: > Michael Haubenwallner wrote: >> i signed zope.org TOS agreement last thursday, just after the chat. > > Great > >> could a kind soul contact me and give me some directions please ;) >> for a start i'd like to participate in >> - make the syndication feeds work again and more stable >> - create a suite of rss-feeds for different areas >> - adapt the way how new and changed content is presented >> to zope.org visitors > > Hm, let's see. > > This sounds mainly like content work. In which case, you need to > coordinate with Mark and, otherwise, post ideas here, which you have. It actually sounds more like ZPT/DTML, Python Scrip (Zope Systems) work to me. The stuff about how new and changed content is presented I'll be happy to work with Michael on but I'd like to see some mockups / visual proposals of what he has in mind so that we can discuss them. > > If we need to change the software, you'll probably need file-system > access. > For that, you'll need to sign the non-disclosure agreement. > Alternatively, > someone else might be able to make changes for you. I will add this to my notes for the overview. Cheers, Mark From jim at zope.com Tue Jul 6 14:17:12 2004 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Tue Jul 6 14:17:54 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] zope.org volunteering In-Reply-To: <7A706726-CF77-11D8-8272-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> References: <40EAC150.1080900@zope.com> <7A706726-CF77-11D8-8272-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> Message-ID: <40EAECA8.1050903@zope.com> Mark wrote: > Hello Jim, > > On Jul 6, 2004, at 11:12 AM, Jim Fulton wrote: > >> Michael Haubenwallner wrote: >> >>> i signed zope.org TOS agreement last thursday, just after the chat. >> >> >> Great >> >>> could a kind soul contact me and give me some directions please ;) >>> for a start i'd like to participate in >>> - make the syndication feeds work again and more stable >>> - create a suite of rss-feeds for different areas >>> - adapt the way how new and changed content is presented >>> to zope.org visitors >> >> >> Hm, let's see. >> >> This sounds mainly like content work. In which case, you need to >> coordinate with Mark and, otherwise, post ideas here, which you have. > > > It actually sounds more like ZPT/DTML, Python Scrip (Zope Systems) work > to me. The implementation may be. The first step is to decide the what. Later, someone can figure out the how. :) > The stuff about how new and changed content is presented I'll be happy > to work > with Michael on but I'd like to see some mockups / visual proposals of > what he > has in mind so that we can discuss them. Yup. Remember that, in theory, you are the content PHB. This means the only work you need to do is to find people to do the work. Of course, finding yourself is an acceptable approach, but may not scale. ;) >> >> If we need to change the software, you'll probably need file-system >> access. >> For that, you'll need to sign the non-disclosure agreement. >> Alternatively, >> someone else might be able to make changes for you. > > > I will add this to my notes for the overview. Note that in www.zope.org/About, the theory is that the content group decides what the site should do. If software changes are needed, they turn to the systems group for help with implementation. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From jim at zope.com Tue Jul 6 14:26:44 2004 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Tue Jul 6 14:26:54 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Systems group Message-ID: <40EAEEE4.1010403@zope.com> I'm trying to figure out how to get the systems group organized. As a first step, I'm trying to figure out who has signed the non-disclosure agreement. Unfortunately, the person who, I hope, has that information is on vacation this week, so I'm not going to be able to get things set up this week. In the mean time, I'd like to try to come up with some proceedures for getting these things done. I suggest we keep this simple. Collector items should just be claimed by people by assigning items to themselves. If anyone wants to be able to do this, I'll add them as a collextor supporter. This includes performance issues. If someone wants to make a functionality change to the site, I'd like to follow the "fishbowl" process. That is, I'd like people to write up short proposals and request comment. We need to figure out where we'll do this. Mark, are you setting up a zope.org Wiki? Did someone say there already was one? Is so, can anyone tell me where? Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From mark at zopemag.com Tue Jul 6 15:15:20 2004 From: mark at zopemag.com (Mark) Date: Tue Jul 6 15:16:07 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Systems group In-Reply-To: <40EAEEE4.1010403@zope.com> References: <40EAEEE4.1010403@zope.com> Message-ID: Hello Jim, > Mark, are you setting up a zope.org Wiki? Did someone say > there already was one? Is so, can anyone tell me where? I've played with a Wiki in my Folder but could someone from the systems group setup one for the Docs section and I will be happy to fill it with content and try to organize and announce what help is needed. By the way anybody from Zope Corp going to the Thursday ZPUG meeting in D.C. -- I will be there. If somebody is -- could you bring me a NDA that I can sign? Cheers, Mark From pw_lists at slinkp.com Tue Jul 6 15:26:05 2004 From: pw_lists at slinkp.com (Paul Winkler) Date: Tue Jul 6 15:26:18 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Systems group In-Reply-To: <40EAEEE4.1010403@zope.com> References: <40EAEEE4.1010403@zope.com> Message-ID: <20040706192605.GE1756@slinkp.com> On Tue, Jul 06, 2004 at 02:26:44PM -0400, Jim Fulton wrote: > Mark, are you setting up a zope.org Wiki? Did someone say > there already was one? Is so, can anyone tell me where? There seem to be a bunch of (very) old ones: http://zope.org/Wikis/zope-web/FrontPage http://zope.org/projects/nzo/FrontPage http://zope.org/projects/nzo/OldProjectWiki http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ZopeOrgCollaborationEnhancement/FrontPage -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com From mark at zopemag.com Tue Jul 6 16:16:42 2004 From: mark at zopemag.com (Mark) Date: Tue Jul 6 16:17:59 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Systems group In-Reply-To: <20040706192605.GE1756@slinkp.com> References: <40EAEEE4.1010403@zope.com> <20040706192605.GE1756@slinkp.com> Message-ID: <657EA821-CF89-11D8-AE4C-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> Thanks Paul, That's what is taking me so long -- reading through all the material that already exists and figuring out what can be built on top of, what is worthwhile linking to, and what is just very old and outdated (therefore not worthwhile linking to) I'd like to have a fresh wiki but appreciate you taking the time to point out some of the old ones. Noticed for example links to the Zope Weekly News, which then became the Zope Monthly, Zope Whenever and finally Zope Never News. This failure was one of the reasons why we started ZopeMag Weekly News http://weekly.zopemag.com because we thought it was important to give a summary of things going on. One thing at a time :-) Cheers, Mark On Jul 6, 2004, at 3:26 PM, Paul Winkler wrote: > On Tue, Jul 06, 2004 at 02:26:44PM -0400, Jim Fulton wrote: >> Mark, are you setting up a zope.org Wiki? Did someone say >> there already was one? Is so, can anyone tell me where? > > There seem to be a bunch of (very) old ones: > > http://zope.org/Wikis/zope-web/FrontPage > http://zope.org/projects/nzo/FrontPage > http://zope.org/projects/nzo/OldProjectWiki > http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ > ZopeOrgCollaborationEnhancement/FrontPage > > > -- > > Paul Winkler > http://www.slinkp.com > _______________________________________________ > Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web > > From simon at joyful.com Tue Jul 6 20:14:23 2004 From: simon at joyful.com (Simon Michael) Date: Tue Jul 6 20:17:57 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Systems group In-Reply-To: <657EA821-CF89-11D8-AE4C-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> References: <40EAEEE4.1010403@zope.com> <20040706192605.GE1756@slinkp.com> <657EA821-CF89-11D8-AE4C-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> Message-ID: > I'd like to have a fresh wiki but appreciate you taking the time to Whoops, is zopewiki's mandate slipping ? New wiki coming on zope.org ? Note the zwiki installation on zope.org has a number of problems - I mean broken things, not just skin gripes - I forget what, but they're in the collector. I can guide/assist anyone working on this. I'd recommend an upgrade to 0.32. Best -Simon From klm at zope.com Wed Jul 7 15:18:36 2004 From: klm at zope.com (Ken Manheimer) Date: Wed Jul 7 15:30:39 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Systems group References: <40EAEEE4.1010403@zope.com> Message-ID: <871xjnsk1f.fsf@smtp.zope.com> Mark writes: > > Mark, are you setting up a zope.org Wiki? Did someone say > > there already was one? Is so, can anyone tell me where? > > I've played with a Wiki in my Folder but could someone from the systems > group setup one for > the Docs section and I will be happy to fill it with content and try to > organize and announce > what help is needed. Sorry i didn't mention this sooner - i carved out a space for a wiki friday, and (barely) started to put the skeleton i'd like to see in place. http://zope.org/Wikis/ZopeOrgUpkeep/SystemsUpkeep > By the way anybody from Zope Corp going to the Thursday ZPUG meeting in D.C. > -- I will be there. If somebody is -- could you bring me a NDA that I can > sign? Sorry i probly won't be there... Ken klm@zope.com From klm at zope.com Wed Jul 7 15:58:36 2004 From: klm at zope.com (Ken Manheimer) Date: Wed Jul 7 15:58:51 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Systems group References: <40EAEEE4.1010403@zope.com> <20040706192605.GE1756@slinkp.com> <657EA821-CF89-11D8-AE4C-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> Message-ID: <87vfgzr3mb.fsf@smtp.zope.com> Simon Michael writes: > > I'd like to have a fresh wiki but appreciate you taking the time to > > Whoops, is zopewiki's mandate slipping ? New wiki coming on zope.org ? I like that you're getting some traction on zope documentation at zopewiki - and that the maintenance effort is being offloaded from zope.org folk, whoever that folk are. Thanks for that. That said, i for one like the idea of having visitors to zope.org easily find the documentation about zope.org's upkeep right there. It seems like it's an intrinsic part of understanding the site, and would be helpful - crucial, even - for steering people who would be willing to help with the effort to the effort. For that reason i'd like to see it linked in a very noticable way on the front page. I also think the "eat your own dogfood" thing would be crucial here, given that the mandate is to try to get the system reasonable useful. If we can't get it useful enough for our own working documents/discussions, then we've failed. (The system configuration details are kept in subversion so they're available when they're most needed, in the event of system failure.) I'm not sure what the best division of resources between zopewiki.org and zope.org would be, once zope.org gets more usable. As i understand it, one of the key thrusts of this project is to both enable and promote community involvement in the maintenance of the content and systems side of zope.org, so maybe at some point it would make sense to shift the locus of the docs back to zope.org. Dunno. > Note the zwiki installation on zope.org has a number of problems - I mean > broken things, not just skin gripes - I forget what, but they're in the > collector. I can guide/assist anyone working on this. I'd recommend an > upgrade to 0.32. I'll see if there's anything i can do to foster the upgrade happening, one way or another. Ken From michael at d2m.at Thu Jul 8 07:30:06 2004 From: michael at d2m.at (Michael Haubenwallner) Date: Thu Jul 8 07:30:21 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] zope.org volunteering In-Reply-To: <7A706726-CF77-11D8-8272-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> References: <40EAC150.1080900@zope.com> <7A706726-CF77-11D8-8272-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> Message-ID: Mark wrote: >> Michael Haubenwallner wrote: >>> - adapt the way how new and changed content is presented >>> to zope.org visitors > The stuff about how new and changed content is presented I'll be happy > to work > with Michael on but I'd like to see some mockups / visual proposals of > what he > has in mind so that we can discuss them. Sorry for the delay - workload is high atm. Until the wikis are in place i have put together a proposal here http://dev.zope.org/Members/d2m/AdaptNewChangedContentPresention please be patient with a first-time proposer ;) i'd like to discuss, if the direction is right - mockups will follow as we proceed. Michael From chris at simplistix.co.uk Thu Jul 8 10:30:11 2004 From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers) Date: Thu Jul 8 10:30:13 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Re: SSL ideas In-Reply-To: <40E44D29.3080102@zope.com> References: <40E4396A.4090602@simplistix.co.uk> <40E44D29.3080102@zope.com> Message-ID: <40ED5A73.4040402@simplistix.co.uk> Andrew Sawyers wrote: > Chris Withers wrote: > >> Hi Brian. >> >> My ideas are fairly simple: >> >> Wherever you're doing your rewriting, setup a domain: >> >> https://secure.zope.org/ >> >> ...that point to the root of Zope.org's ZODB, and is over SSL. >> >> Then instruct manager to always use that. >> >> Should be simple enough, right? >> >> Chris >> > I recommend the use of ssh tunnels from the cache server with a port > forward to get into the root of the zope instance for management > tasks...... Well, if it works, just tell me what I need to do! > We currently do not run apache out front of Zope; the rewriting is > happening in squid cache peer/redirectors. > Andrew I thought redirectors were easy to bash to make this kind of thing work? Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk From andrew at zope.com Thu Jul 8 10:41:26 2004 From: andrew at zope.com (Andrew Sawyers) Date: Thu Jul 8 10:41:34 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Re: SSL ideas In-Reply-To: <40ED5A73.4040402@simplistix.co.uk> References: <40E4396A.4090602@simplistix.co.uk> <40E44D29.3080102@zope.com> <40ED5A73.4040402@simplistix.co.uk> Message-ID: <40ED5D16.1080908@zope.com> Chris Withers wrote: > Andrew Sawyers wrote: > >> Chris Withers wrote: >> >>> Hi Brian. >>> >>> My ideas are fairly simple: >>> >>> Wherever you're doing your rewriting, setup a domain: >>> >>> https://secure.zope.org/ >>> >>> ...that point to the root of Zope.org's ZODB, and is over SSL. >>> >>> Then instruct manager to always use that. >>> >>> Should be simple enough, right? >>> >>> Chris >>> >> I recommend the use of ssh tunnels from the cache server with a port >> forward to get into the root of the zope instance for management >> tasks...... > > > Well, if it works, just tell me what I need to do! From my FreeBSD server: ssh -g -L12081:10.0.24.20:8080 andrew@cache1.zope.org -g says it will forward for other machines, not just localhost (this way I can use my laptop) -L says, which port on the machine you're sshing from to redirect to the machine and port following it -- in this case, my FreeBSD server listens on port 12081, and forwards that to the server 10.0.24.20 port 8080 Then follows the machine you'll connect to. Then, to manage zope, just go to http://your.forwarding.machine:12081/manage Works perfectly. > >> We currently do not run apache out front of Zope; the rewriting is >> happening in squid cache peer/redirectors. >> Andrew > > > I thought redirectors were easy to bash to make this kind of thing work? It might be, but why add unnecessary complextiy, management, to something that works as it's intended and there's just as viable way to access the ZMI for TTW management of zope.org? > > Chris > Andrew -- Zope Corporation Software Engineer (540) 361-1700 From andrew at zope.com Thu Jul 8 11:55:55 2004 From: andrew at zope.com (Andrew Sawyers) Date: Thu Jul 8 11:56:02 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope org Webmasters Message-ID: <40ED6E8B.6010906@zope.com> Who should receive mail for webmaster@zope.org? Andrew -- Zope Corporation Software Engineer (540) 361-1700 From jim at zope.com Thu Jul 8 12:06:18 2004 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Thu Jul 8 12:06:27 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope org Webmasters In-Reply-To: <40ED6E8B.6010906@zope.com> References: <40ED6E8B.6010906@zope.com> Message-ID: <40ED70FA.6020300@zope.com> Andrew Sawyers wrote: > Who should receive mail for webmaster@zope.org? Good question. I sugest we: - make webmaster a mailman list - Invite people here subscribe, but approve subscriptions Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From mark at zopemag.com Thu Jul 8 12:34:08 2004 From: mark at zopemag.com (Mark) Date: Thu Jul 8 12:35:24 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] New revision of Docs front page Message-ID: Hi, Go here: http://zope.org/Members/beehive/zopeorgdocspageV2.pdf To grab a version 2 proposal of what the docs section could look like. I have to get back to some project work but am busy working on other graffles for the Contributing / Community Work overview and a volunteer page. Cheers, Mark From mark at zopemag.com Thu Jul 8 12:36:31 2004 From: mark at zopemag.com (Mark) Date: Thu Jul 8 12:37:15 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] zope.org volunteering In-Reply-To: References: <40EAC150.1080900@zope.com> <7A706726-CF77-11D8-8272-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> Message-ID: Hello Michael, Thanks for putting this up. I will need some time to think about what you are proposing. But glancing over it I agree with you on many points. Especially the how-to related stuff. Cheers, Mark On Jul 8, 2004, at 7:30 AM, Michael Haubenwallner wrote: > Mark wrote: >>> Michael Haubenwallner wrote: >>>> - adapt the way how new and changed content is presented >>>> to zope.org visitors >> The stuff about how new and changed content is presented I'll be >> happy to work >> with Michael on but I'd like to see some mockups / visual proposals >> of what he >> has in mind so that we can discuss them. > > Sorry for the delay - workload is high atm. > > Until the wikis are in place i have put together a proposal here > http://dev.zope.org/Members/d2m/AdaptNewChangedContentPresention > > please be patient with a first-time proposer ;) > > i'd like to discuss, if the direction is right - mockups will follow > as we proceed. > > Michael > > > _______________________________________________ > Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web > > From webmaven at cox.net Thu Jul 8 14:25:30 2004 From: webmaven at cox.net (Michael Bernstein) Date: Thu Jul 8 14:31:10 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope org Webmasters In-Reply-To: <40ED70FA.6020300@zope.com> References: <40ED6E8B.6010906@zope.com> <40ED70FA.6020300@zope.com> Message-ID: Jim Fulton wrote: > Andrew Sawyers wrote: > >> Who should receive mail for webmaster@zope.org? > > Good question. > > I sugest we: > > - make webmaster a mailman list > > - Invite people here subscribe, but approve subscriptions +1 Further requirement: - Archives are only accessible to subscribers This is fairly important, as the alias gets a lot of 'please help me log into my account' requests, and the (sometimes unorthodox) information we use to verify ownership of an account should be kept private. -- - Michael R. Bernstein | Author of Zope Bible michaelbernstein.com | & Zope.org Webmaster panhedron.com | PythonPhotos.org From jim at zope.com Thu Jul 8 14:39:33 2004 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Thu Jul 8 14:39:41 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope org Webmasters In-Reply-To: References: <40ED6E8B.6010906@zope.com> <40ED70FA.6020300@zope.com> Message-ID: <40ED94E5.2030208@zope.com> Michael Bernstein wrote: > Jim Fulton wrote: > >> Andrew Sawyers wrote: >> >>> Who should receive mail for webmaster@zope.org? >> >> >> Good question. >> >> I sugest we: >> >> - make webmaster a mailman list >> >> - Invite people here subscribe, but approve subscriptions > > > +1 > > Further requirement: > > - Archives are only accessible to subscribers > > This is fairly important, as the alias gets a lot of 'please help me log > into my account' requests, and the (sometimes unorthodox) information > we use to verify ownership of an account should be kept private. Agreed. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From michael at d2m.at Thu Jul 8 14:40:47 2004 From: michael at d2m.at (Michael Haubenwallner) Date: Thu Jul 8 14:41:09 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] News and Product listings broken Message-ID: Problem: 'News' and 'Product listings' in the right bottom column are 'broken'. Reason: The sort-order of the listing was set from 'created' to 'effective'. Some of the 'News Items' have no 'effective' date set and do not appear in the result. Solutions: - change sorting back to 'created' (which is used in /News anyway) - a change in workflow to enforce setting of 'effective date' or default it to creation date. Michael -- http://zope.org/Members/d2m ** now using /manage ;) ** From simon at joyful.com Thu Jul 8 15:58:08 2004 From: simon at joyful.com (Simon Michael) Date: Thu Jul 8 16:01:38 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Systems group In-Reply-To: <87vfgzr3mb.fsf@smtp.zope.com> References: <40EAEEE4.1010403@zope.com> <20040706192605.GE1756@slinkp.com> <657EA821-CF89-11D8-AE4C-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> <87vfgzr3mb.fsf@smtp.zope.com> Message-ID: <40EDA750.9070409@joyful.com> Hi Ken.. > idea of having visitors to zope.org easily find the documentation about > zope.org's upkeep right there. For sure.. > I'm not sure what the best division of resources between zopewiki.org and > zope.org would be, once zope.org gets more usable. Just for the record: me neither. > I'll see if there's anything i can do to foster the upgrade happening, one > way or another. Cool, thanks. A related issue is how to have this happen semi-regularly. I'm just proposing anything, just kibitzing. Aside: the permanent #zope-web channel was a really good idea. From klm at zope.com Thu Jul 8 16:12:21 2004 From: klm at zope.com (Ken Manheimer) Date: Thu Jul 8 16:12:41 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Systems group In-Reply-To: <40EDA750.9070409@joyful.com> References: <40EAEEE4.1010403@zope.com> <20040706192605.GE1756@slinkp.com> <657EA821-CF89-11D8-AE4C-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> <87vfgzr3mb.fsf@smtp.zope.com> <40EDA750.9070409@joyful.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Simon Michael wrote: > > I'll see if there's anything i can do to foster the upgrade happening, one > > way or another. > > Cool, thanks. A related issue is how to have this happen semi-regularly. I'm > just proposing anything, just kibitzing. Would you be willing/interested in handling that? I have the distinct impression that kind of login-to-the-host community involvement is now not just possible but desired... > Aside: the permanent #zope-web channel was a really good idea. Jim's, i think. No doubt taken from the emerging trend we're seeing, with more open source projects doing that... Ken klm@zope.com From andrew at zope.com Thu Jul 8 16:17:28 2004 From: andrew at zope.com (Andrew Sawyers) Date: Thu Jul 8 16:17:37 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Systems group In-Reply-To: References: <40EAEEE4.1010403@zope.com> <20040706192605.GE1756@slinkp.com> <657EA821-CF89-11D8-AE4C-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> <87vfgzr3mb.fsf@smtp.zope.com> <40EDA750.9070409@joyful.com> Message-ID: <40EDABD8.8010307@zope.com> Ken Manheimer wrote: >On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Simon Michael wrote: > > > >>>I'll see if there's anything i can do to foster the upgrade happening, one >>>way or another. >>> >>> >>Cool, thanks. A related issue is how to have this happen semi-regularly. I'm >>just proposing anything, just kibitzing. >> >> > >Would you be willing/interested in handling that? I have the distinct >impression that kind of login-to-the-host community involvement is now not >just possible but desired... > > I believe it is possible; and desired. It requires an NDA to the best of my knowledge. Jim "PHB" Fulton will have to respond 'officially' though. Andrew -- Zope Corporation Software Engineer (540) 361-1700 From webmaven at cox.net Thu Jul 8 16:22:43 2004 From: webmaven at cox.net (Michael Bernstein) Date: Thu Jul 8 16:23:14 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope org Webmasters In-Reply-To: <40ED6E8B.6010906@zope.com> References: <40ED6E8B.6010906@zope.com> Message-ID: Due to the first reply going astray, I am resending this. Andrew Sawyers wrote: > > Who should receive mail for webmaster@zope.org? > Andrew The people I know who were receiving it previously (before the great mail server nuke) are: Myself Brian Lloyd Andreas Jung There were probably others. As the mail has been nuked off the server, I need copies of all emails (other than spam) between 6/23 10:38AM -0700 and 7/8 9:45AM -0700. If anyone else has received these I would appreciate it if someone could send copies to me. In particular, I need copies of the electronic NDA signatures. To avoid multiple copies in my inbox, please post your intention to do so to this list first. Thanks. -- - Michael R. Bernstein | Author of Zope Bible michaelbernstein.com | & Zope.org Webmaster panhedron.com | PythonPhotos.org From andrew at zope.com Thu Jul 8 16:38:05 2004 From: andrew at zope.com (Andrew Sawyers) Date: Thu Jul 8 16:38:15 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope org Webmasters In-Reply-To: References: <40ED6E8B.6010906@zope.com> Message-ID: <40EDB0AD.2000708@zope.com> Michael Bernstein wrote: > Due to the first reply going astray, I am resending this. > > Andrew Sawyers wrote: > > > >> Who should receive mail for webmaster@zope.org? >> Andrew > > > The people I know who were receiving it previously (before the great > mail server nuke) are: > > Myself > Brian Lloyd > Andreas Jung > > There were probably others. > > As the mail has been nuked off the server, I need copies of all emails > (other than spam) between 6/23 10:38AM -0700 and 7/8 9:45AM -0700. If > anyone else has received these I would appreciate it if someone could > send copies to me. > > In particular, I need copies of the electronic NDA signatures. > > To avoid multiple copies in my inbox, please post your intention to do > so to this list first. > > Thanks. > I can get the 'old' who - I'd like a current, official, updated 'who' :) The old mail server is still up and accessible. Andrew -- Zope Corporation Software Engineer (540) 361-1700 From simon at joyful.com Thu Jul 8 16:46:39 2004 From: simon at joyful.com (Simon Michael) Date: Thu Jul 8 16:50:09 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Systems group In-Reply-To: <40EDABD8.8010307@zope.com> References: <40EAEEE4.1010403@zope.com> <20040706192605.GE1756@slinkp.com> <657EA821-CF89-11D8-AE4C-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> <87vfgzr3mb.fsf@smtp.zope.com> <40EDA750.9070409@joyful.com> <40EDABD8.8010307@zope.com> Message-ID: >> Would you be willing/interested in handling that? Yes, but I avoid NDAs in general so unfortunately that may not be possible. I can be on zope-web when someone is upgrading. From michael at d2m.at Thu Jul 8 17:32:47 2004 From: michael at d2m.at (Michael Haubenwallner) Date: Thu Jul 8 17:33:06 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] zope.org: HowTo listings broken Message-ID: Problem: http://www.zope.org/Documentation/How-To/ Listing of 'HowTos' is incorrect - objects created after the transition to Plone are not found by the query. Reason: There are 2 'HowTo' products - one from old.zope.org and the one from CMF now. The existing query selects for meta_type in ['How-To','HowTo']. The new 'HowTo' objects have a meta_type of 'Document' and a portal_type of 'HowTo'. Only old HowTos are returned by the query. Solution: - create a new Query (ZPT and Script) to show a combined listing Additional problem: - the now added new HowTos are not well suited for display in the listing because of missing or incomplete titles - title-gardening will be needed for existing HowTos - titles for HowTos should be enforced by workflow What do you think? Michael -- http://zope.org/Members/d2m ** now using /manage ;) ** From jim at zope.com Thu Jul 8 18:04:54 2004 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Thu Jul 8 18:05:06 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Systems group In-Reply-To: References: <40EAEEE4.1010403@zope.com> <20040706192605.GE1756@slinkp.com> <657EA821-CF89-11D8-AE4C-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> <87vfgzr3mb.fsf@smtp.zope.com> <40EDA750.9070409@joyful.com> Message-ID: <40EDC506.1020207@zope.com> Ken Manheimer wrote: > On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Simon Michael wrote: ... >>Aside: the permanent #zope-web channel was a really good idea. > > > Jim's, i think. No doubt taken from the emerging trend we're seeing, with > more open source projects doing that... Nope, not mine. Maybe Rob's or Chris Withers'. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From jim at zope.com Thu Jul 8 18:06:09 2004 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Thu Jul 8 18:06:21 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Systems group In-Reply-To: <40EDABD8.8010307@zope.com> References: <40EAEEE4.1010403@zope.com> <20040706192605.GE1756@slinkp.com> <657EA821-CF89-11D8-AE4C-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> <87vfgzr3mb.fsf@smtp.zope.com> <40EDA750.9070409@joyful.com> <40EDABD8.8010307@zope.com> Message-ID: <40EDC551.6030607@zope.com> Andrew Sawyers wrote: > Ken Manheimer wrote: > >> On Thu, 8 Jul 2004, Simon Michael wrote: >> >> >> >>>> I'll see if there's anything i can do to foster the upgrade >>>> happening, one >>>> way or another. >>>> >>> >>> Cool, thanks. A related issue is how to have this happen >>> semi-regularly. I'm >>> just proposing anything, just kibitzing. >>> >> >> >> Would you be willing/interested in handling that? I have the distinct >> impression that kind of login-to-the-host community involvement is now >> not just possible but desired... Yup! > I believe it is possible; and desired. It requires an NDA to the best > of my knowledge. Jim "PHB" Fulton will have to respond 'officially' > though. Any file-system access requires a signed NDA. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From jim at zope.com Thu Jul 8 18:10:31 2004 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Thu Jul 8 18:10:42 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Systems group In-Reply-To: References: <40EAEEE4.1010403@zope.com> <20040706192605.GE1756@slinkp.com> <657EA821-CF89-11D8-AE4C-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> <87vfgzr3mb.fsf@smtp.zope.com> <40EDA750.9070409@joyful.com> <40EDABD8.8010307@zope.com> Message-ID: <40EDC657.9080809@zope.com> Simon Michael wrote: >>> Would you be willing/interested in handling that? > > > Yes, but I avoid NDAs in general so unfortunately that may not be > possible. I can be on zope-web when someone is upgrading. At least read this one. :) http://zope.org/About/agreements/NDA/ The main intent is to protect confidential systems info like passwords, keys, databases, etc. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From webmaven at cox.net Thu Jul 8 19:24:53 2004 From: webmaven at cox.net (Michael Bernstein) Date: Thu Jul 8 19:25:26 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] zope.org: HowTo listings broken In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Michael Haubenwallner wrote: > Problem: > http://www.zope.org/Documentation/How-To/ > Listing of 'HowTos' is incorrect - objects created after the transition > to Plone are not found by the query. > > Reason: > There are 2 'HowTo' products - one from old.zope.org and the one from > CMF now. The existing query selects for meta_type in ['How-To','HowTo']. > The new 'HowTo' objects have a meta_type of 'Document' and a portal_type > of 'HowTo'. Only old HowTos are returned by the query. > > Solution: > - create a new Query (ZPT and Script) to show a combined listing > > Additional problem: > - the now added new HowTos are not well suited for display in the > listing because of missing or incomplete titles > - title-gardening will be needed for existing HowTos > - titles for HowTos should be enforced by workflow > > What do you think? Michael, this is a known problem (though not one raised publicly before). Your solution matches in outline one I proposed to Brian Lloyd several months ago. You can find a page that lists *only* the new How-To objects here: You'll find (if you examine that page while logged out) that little title-gardening is actually required. Most of objects missing titles are actually unpublished. I've been holding off on this and some other similar surgery (such as the breakage in the Product listings) until the ZCatalog problems can be fixed (or some reasonable facsimile thereof). -- - Michael R. Bernstein | Author of Zope Bible michaelbernstein.com | & Zope.org Webmaster panhedron.com | PythonPhotos.org From simon at joyful.com Thu Jul 8 19:29:04 2004 From: simon at joyful.com (Simon Michael) Date: Thu Jul 8 19:32:35 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Systems group In-Reply-To: <40EDC657.9080809@zope.com> References: <40EAEEE4.1010403@zope.com> <20040706192605.GE1756@slinkp.com> <657EA821-CF89-11D8-AE4C-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> <87vfgzr3mb.fsf@smtp.zope.com> <40EDA750.9070409@joyful.com> <40EDABD8.8010307@zope.com> <40EDC657.9080809@zope.com> Message-ID: I did. :) The intent is good. From michael at d2m.at Fri Jul 9 08:00:01 2004 From: michael at d2m.at (Michael Haubenwallner) Date: Fri Jul 9 08:00:21 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] zope.org: HowTo listings broken In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Michael Bernstein wrote: > Michael, this is a known problem (though not one raised publicly > before). Your solution matches in outline one I proposed to Brian Lloyd > several months ago. You can find a page that lists *only* the new How-To > objects here: > > > You'll find (if you examine that page while logged out) that little > title-gardening is actually required. Most of objects missing titles are > actually unpublished. > > I've been holding off on this and some other similar surgery (such as > the breakage in the Product listings) until the ZCatalog problems can be > fixed (or some reasonable facsimile thereof). > It would be nice if we could meet in #zope-web today to talk this over. Michael From rob.page at zope.com Fri Jul 9 09:28:43 2004 From: rob.page at zope.com (Rob Page) Date: Fri Jul 9 09:29:19 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] IRC Reminder Message-ID: Hello everyone: Here is a short reminder about the upcoming Zope community IRC session scheduled as follows: - Tue, July 13, 7a (US/EDT, GMT-4) The IRC will occur on irc.freenode.net in the #zope channel. We will be developing an agenda through Monday. If you have topics to suggest, please email them to: - irc_agenda_topics@zope.com Thanks! Regards, Rob Current Agenda -------------- - ZPL v2.1 Update (Jim Fulton, 10 mins) - Zope.org content group update (Mark Pratt, 20 mins) - Zope.org systems group update (Jim Fulton, 10 mins) - Other topics as suggested -- Rob Page V: 540.361.1710 Zope Corporation F: 703.995.0412 From awilloughby at openwebsystems.com Fri Jul 9 12:47:24 2004 From: awilloughby at openwebsystems.com (Anthony Willoughby) Date: Fri Jul 9 12:47:38 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope soution providers logo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Answering my own question here. Myroslav Opyr pointed out that you just put image into the same folder and type its name into the image field. It now works! Thanks AW Anthony Willoughby wrote: > Hi > > I have had an entry on my company up for some time under the Zope > Suppliers area of zope.org. However, I have never been able to get our > company logo to show up. > > In the submission form there is a field for the logo. I have tried > inputting the url of the logo on our web site, and also uploading the > logo to my personal area and pointing to it with a relative url. Neither > seems to work > > Any help appreciated. > > Anthony Willoughby > OpenWeb Systems > > > _______________________________________________ > Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web > From webmaven at cox.net Fri Jul 9 18:43:27 2004 From: webmaven at cox.net (Michael Bernstein) Date: Fri Jul 9 18:43:58 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] ZCatalog Issues Message-ID: Here is a summary of a chat this morning on #zope-web where some long-existing ZCatalog issues were aired out. They are listed in dependency order: 1. It takes a *very* long time to view the indexes tab (this was something I thought Casey had fixed, but the problem seems to have re-emerged). This issue isn't actually blocking anything, it just makes it incredibly annoying and time consuming to deal with the Catalog at all. 2. Attempting to re-index the ZCatalog (by clicking the 'Update Catalog' button in the 'Advanced' tab) causes a timeout or an error message. There are over 179k objects, but it is my understanding that ZCatalog should scale to that many objects fairly easily. I am given to understand that Casey and Shane have been working on fixing this issue. Possible workaround: - Reindex the individual objects one at a time or in very small batches by connecting to the ZODB with a ZEO client (suggested by Simon Michael and Andrew Sawyer). 3. Due to #2, it is as yet impractical to add new indexes to the ZCatalog in order to solve various issues with the site. For example, I added a title_or_id FieldIndex to the ZCatalog in early May to help solve a problem with the Product listings. As of now, this index is only aware of 6211 objects out of the 179k. These are only the objects that have been added or edited since I created the index. As a result, I can't solve the Products issue (though I have hidden it in the meantime). I have also been reluctant to tackle the HowTo listings until the ZCatalog problems are solved (or some reasonable facsimile thereof) for the same reason. -- - Michael R. Bernstein | Author of Zope Bible michaelbernstein.com | & Zope.org Webmaster panhedron.com | PythonPhotos.org From webmaven at cox.net Fri Jul 9 20:01:07 2004 From: webmaven at cox.net (Michael Bernstein) Date: Fri Jul 9 20:01:38 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Terms Of Service electronic signatures Message-ID: Well, it now looks like any email to the webmaster alias sent between 6/26 and 7/8 has been lost for good. This includes at least one TOS signature email that I am aware of. TOS signatures that have been received are: Chris Withers Andreas Jung Dario Lopez-K?sten Known lost signatures: Michael Haubenwallner There are two solutions: 1. we can have people sign the TOS again. 2. we can ask them to forward their copy of the first signature to the webmaster account. Does anyone have a preference? -- - Michael R. Bernstein | Author of Zope Bible michaelbernstein.com | & Zope.org Webmaster panhedron.com | PythonPhotos.org From lists at andreas-jung.com Sat Jul 10 03:09:18 2004 From: lists at andreas-jung.com (Andreas Jung) Date: Sat Jul 10 03:09:13 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] ZCatalog Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <15F22B9FF51E855D712C863B@[192.168.0.102]> We are having the very same problems with our new company CMS which uses several ZEO storage with up to 400k objects in *each* partition. In some case it is necessary for us to reindex only a small number of the documents that match a particular criteria..I am also interested to help out and improve the handling of such large catalogs in a way that I could sleep calm during a nightly reindexing session :-) Andreas --On Freitag, 9. Juli 2004 15:43 Uhr -0700 Michael Bernstein wrote: > Here is a summary of a chat this morning on #zope-web where some > long-existing ZCatalog issues were aired out. They are listed in > dependency order: > > 1. It takes a *very* long time to view the indexes tab (this was > something I thought Casey had fixed, but the problem seems to have > re-emerged). This issue isn't actually blocking anything, it just makes > it incredibly annoying and time consuming to deal with the Catalog at all. > > 2. Attempting to re-index the ZCatalog (by clicking the 'Update Catalog' > button in the 'Advanced' tab) causes a timeout or an error message. There > are over 179k objects, but it is my understanding that ZCatalog should > scale to that many objects fairly easily. I am given to understand that > Casey and Shane have been working on fixing this issue. > > Possible workaround: > - Reindex the individual objects one at a time or in very small batches > by connecting to the ZODB with a ZEO client (suggested by Simon Michael > and Andrew Sawyer). > > 3. Due to #2, it is as yet impractical to add new indexes to the ZCatalog > in order to solve various issues with the site. For example, I added a > title_or_id FieldIndex to the ZCatalog in early May to help solve a > problem with the Product listings. As of now, this index is only aware of > 6211 objects out of the 179k. These are only the objects that have been > added or edited since I created the index. As a result, I can't solve the > Products issue (though I have hidden it in the meantime). I have also > been reluctant to tackle the HowTo listings until the ZCatalog problems > are solved (or some reasonable facsimile thereof) for the same reason. > > -- > - Michael R. Bernstein | Author of Zope Bible > michaelbernstein.com | & Zope.org Webmaster > panhedron.com | PythonPhotos.org > > _______________________________________________ > Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web From pw_lists at slinkp.com Sat Jul 10 11:29:54 2004 From: pw_lists at slinkp.com (Paul Winkler) Date: Sat Jul 10 11:30:02 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Terms Of Service electronic signatures In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040710152954.GA2030@slinkp.com> On Fri, Jul 09, 2004 at 05:01:07PM -0700, Michael Bernstein wrote: > Well, it now looks like any email to the webmaster alias sent between > 6/26 and 7/8 has been lost for good. This includes at least one TOS > signature email that I am aware of. > > TOS signatures that have been received are: > > Chris Withers > Andreas Jung > Dario Lopez-K?sten > > Known lost signatures: > > Michael Haubenwallner > > There are two solutions: > > 1. we can have people sign the TOS again. > > 2. we can ask them to forward their copy of the first signature to the > webmaster account. > > Does anyone have a preference? I don't see much difference between 1 and 2.... it sounds like mine got lost, I just re-signed. -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com From shane at hathawaymix.org Sat Jul 10 15:08:22 2004 From: shane at hathawaymix.org (Shane Hathaway) Date: Sat Jul 10 15:08:23 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] ZCatalog Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200407101308.22670.shane@hathawaymix.org> On Friday 09 July 2004 16:43 pm, Michael Bernstein wrote: > 2. Attempting to re-index the ZCatalog (by clicking the 'Update Catalog' > button in the 'Advanced' tab) causes a timeout or an error message. > There are over 179k objects, but it is my understanding that ZCatalog > should scale to that many objects fairly easily. I am given to > understand that Casey and Shane have been working on fixing this issue. Well, here is what I've learned so far from analyzing the zope.org catalog. Maybe this will help Casey. Maybe others can help, too. I exported the zope.org catalog as a .zexp and wrote a utility that roughly analyzes .zexp files. It took several hours, but since an export operation does not unpickle the objects, it finished successfully. The total size of the .zexp is 340 MB and it contains 572,231 objects. Here is a breakdown of the sizes of the objects: 214387 objects 0-63 bytes 115033 objects 64-255 bytes 202881 objects 256-1023 bytes 30591 objects 1024-4095 bytes 5700 objects 4096-16383 bytes 3434 objects 16384-65535 bytes 194 objects 65536-131071 bytes 11 objects 131072-1048575 bytes 0 objects 1048576-2147483647 bytes I decided to first look at the largest objects in detail. I was happy to see there are no 1 MB objects, but there are two 500K objects and nine objects between 128K and 200K in size. Each of those 11 objects is either an IOBucket, an IOBTree, or an IISet. At least three of them unintentionally contain large, fully-rendered HTML pages (presumably because some indexed object generates HTML for the given attributes.) Note that zope.org currently has its per-connection database cache size set to 23,000 objects. The catalog can not fit in that space, and even if it did, we'd run out of memory. The box has 2 GB, and between two app servers, there are eight connections. Each connection maintains its own copy of the database. 340 MB is probably a low estimate of the catalog's full resident unpickled size, but I'll use it anyway: keeping this catalog in memory would take at least 340 MB * 8 = 2.7 GB. That's also ignoring the size of other objects loaded from the database connections. So should we pile RAM into the box and boost the cache size to 600,000? I think that would be unwise. I've seen evidence that the time spent managing expiration in the ZODB cache rises exponentially with the number of objects in the cache. Flushing a cache containing 20,000 objects can take minutes, and flushing a cache containing 60,000 objects can take an hour. Also, it's a bit difficult to work on this because it's all in C. It seems like this catalog contains simply too many objects. A third of them are very small (less that 64 bytes including the class name); I wonder if we could combine some of these. I think I'll next try to find out how many of the objects are in text indexes and lexicons. There is a bit of good news: zope.org is not consuming gobs of RAM due to a memory leak. I wrote a small Python C extension that uses mallinfo() to reveal how much heap a Python process is actually using for objects, which is often much smaller than the process size as the operating system sees it. Whenever I flush the caches in Zope, its heap usage shrinks to less than 10% of its process size. That means most of the memory is consumed by reclaimable ZODB objects. (I'll post the C extension on the web if anyone is interested.) I'll post more information as I learn more. Shane From michael at d2m.at Sun Jul 11 07:15:09 2004 From: michael at d2m.at (Michael Haubenwallner) Date: Sun Jul 11 07:15:21 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] News and Product listings broken In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Michael Haubenwallner wrote: > Problem: > 'News' and 'Product listings' in the right bottom column are 'broken'. > > Reason: > The sort-order of the listing was set from 'created' to 'effective'. > Some of the 'News Items' have no 'effective' date set and do not appear > in the result. > > Solutions: > - change sorting back to 'created' (which is used in /News anyway) > - a change in workflow to enforce setting of 'effective date' or default > it to creation date. > > Michael > Creators/Reviewers of "News Items" or "Software Releases": please be aware, that due to a change in the catalog-query your news will be shown in the areas on zope.org frontpage (right column, bottom) _only_ if you set the "Effective Date" when publishing the item. Btw: the listings on /News and the /Products AWA the accompaning rss-feeds are not effected, as they are sorted on "Creation Date" instead. Michael http://zope.org/Members/d2m From jens at dataflake.org Sun Jul 11 12:06:30 2004 From: jens at dataflake.org (Jens Vagelpohl) Date: Sun Jul 11 12:06:39 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] ZCatalog Issues In-Reply-To: <200407101308.22670.shane@hathawaymix.org> References: <200407101308.22670.shane@hathawaymix.org> Message-ID: <45B356ED-D354-11D8-A28B-000D9368D272@dataflake.org> > Note that zope.org currently has its per-connection database cache > size set to > 23,000 objects. The catalog can not fit in that space, and even if it > did, > we'd run out of memory. The box has 2 GB, and between two app > servers, there > are eight connections. Each connection maintains its own copy of the > database. 340 MB is probably a low estimate of the catalog's full > resident > unpickled size, but I'll use it anyway: keeping this catalog in memory > would > take at least 340 MB * 8 = 2.7 GB. That's also ignoring the size of > other > objects loaded from the database connections. The first step I would take is to reduce the number of database connections to 3 for both appservers, just to see how much relief that brings. I would also fill the box with 4 GB RAM (it's cheap), and then start to manipulate the cache sizes. > There is a bit of good news: zope.org is not consuming gobs of RAM due > to a > memory leak. I wrote a small Python C extension that uses mallinfo() > to > reveal how much heap a Python process is actually using for objects, > which is > often much smaller than the process size as the operating system sees > it. > Whenever I flush the caches in Zope, its heap usage shrinks to less > than 10% > of its process size. That means most of the memory is consumed by > reclaimable ZODB objects. (I'll post the C extension on the web if > anyone is > interested.) I'd definitely be interested in this tool. jens From chris at simplistix.co.uk Mon Jul 12 05:02:17 2004 From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers) Date: Mon Jul 12 05:02:24 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope.Org Docs Page Draft In-Reply-To: References: <466E488B-CE2B-11D8-9E24-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> <40E90608.5090800@simplistix.co.uk> Message-ID: <40F25399.5090709@simplistix.co.uk> Hi Mark, Mark wrote: > I added two links (one of which was to ZWiki) the other ZopeMag link is > already on Zope.org > anyway and tried to move things around so that we get more space. Who's "we" here? ;-) > but I took a first step. I'd like to encourage other people to come up > with their own drafts or to give > some more suggestions / opinions about what else we should do or how to > structure the information. I'm all for simplicity. That said, the much bigger problem is just keeping whatever documentation is referred to from that page up-to-date... > Agreed. But I think it is a really bad idea to link so prominently to a > resource which hasn't > been updated since 2001 and the most recent comment being from 2002 > only to report > that it has officially stalled. I'm concerned about the first > impressions here. Agreed. Bear in mind how true that is of a lot of documentation to do with Zope though... >> Since both the hurt^whelp system and online tutorial are in pretty >> poor shape, is this really what we want to do? > > Well somebody thought it was important to point out before. I assume it > is. That was probably just after the help system was revised, sinc then it's fallen in to disrepair due to lack of maintainence, which is a familar documentation story... >> This needs to be done *carefully*. If you put links in a product, you >> restrict yourself from re-organising the site, and should really put >> permenant re-directing links if you *ever* move stuff. Again, not >> sure we want to commit to this right now... > > I certainly wouldn't want to change the URL for the docs page. Yes, but a single link to the docs page doesn't really add much... >>> or reflect the name and link to external resources as well. >> >> Agreed. > > I guess that answers your why? Well, I think Zope.org documentation implies documentation about the website itself, which I think totally mis-labels this section... Well thanks for that feedback. Part II is due next month and will of > course continue with what we started. > Each part is about 15 to 20 pages. We will publish part III later this > year. (these will all be free) That doesn't address the problems with Part I ;-) I'd suggest totally rewriting Part I and bringing it up to date if you want to use the term SuperGuide ;-) >> A lot of the doc projects are stalled. I'm loath to just remove them, >> I'd like to see a note put on the stalled ones saying "help us >> maintain this!" instead. > > On the Contributing/Community Work page -- absolutely! And on the resource itself. People may be stirred into action if they go looking for docs and find somewhere they can contribute, especially if they've just gone through the pain and suffering of learning a new tools and found there were no docs. You'll see PlacelessTranslationService grew a docs folder just recently ;-) >>> We need a well written overview of where and how people can contribute. >>> (Contributing/Community Work). This should be *everyones* top >>> priority as it is in everybodies >>> interest to find more volunteers to help with the tasks ahead. >> >> Agree with this... How's this coming? >> ...I totally agree with the other comments on this so far ;-) >> This doesn't NEED two sections. > > Totally disagree with the comments -- see the my answer to Jens. Well, I can see your point, but for me "Documentation" implies the stuff in your "Books" section. I'd break the Articles section off into a totally seperate and longer page, updating as people add Articles to Zope an dpeople link to them on Zope.org. I'd love to see an Article and Article Link content type on Zope.org for this purpose... We could vastly simplify the headings under the "Documentation" section in the left nav. Afterall, how is anyone who doesn't know the answer to their problem going to know to look in one of: The Zope Book Developer Guide Administrator Guide API Reference (...etc...) >>> Lots of new Zope and Plone books coming so this is important to keep >>> up to date. >> >> ...but if it's on Zope.com, how do we do that? I'd suggest a Zope >> Books page on Zope.org and move that into the left-column-navigation. > > Don't care where the page is located -- just that it exists and be kept > up-to-date. Okay, look forward to seeing it appear on Zope.org then :-) Maybe someone from Zope.com could transplant the current page? > Was actually hoping to see people post lots of links to this > mailinglist of recent (less than 3 months) articles about Zope so that > we can start updating the list. I'd suggest posting again, with that as a subject on it's own. You may have more joy asking for sucha response on the main Zope list, this this has a pretty small readership... > I'm kind of confused about your statement. There already is a link to > ZopeMag in the existing docs section of Zope.org -- Yes, one small link at the same level as lots of other stuff ;-) > But if you think that ZopeMag could use some improvement -- we are > always looking for more writers > and would love to see you write for us sometime. What're your rates? Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk From chris at simplistix.co.uk Mon Jul 12 05:07:02 2004 From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers) Date: Mon Jul 12 05:07:08 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope.Org Docs Page Draft In-Reply-To: References: <466E488B-CE2B-11D8-9E24-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> <40E9915E.9080704@joyful.com> <6175D57C-CEAF-11D8-A7BA-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> Message-ID: <40F254B6.4090708@simplistix.co.uk> Mark wrote: > That seems a bit too much like clear cutting to me. If there is a > dedicate magazine IMHO it should > be pointed out. That doesn't seem to be the opinion of others who've posted in this thread ;-) > Here is a alternative shortened version of the Articles paragraph: > > ZopeMag is a Magazine published quarterly about Zope. For a list of > articles published > by Magazines and websites throughout the world click click here. I'd prefer to see something like: For a list of articles published by Magazines and websites throughout the world click click here. And then in "articles": The following publications are dedicated to Zope-related Subject: ZopeMag - Qualterly publication, yada yada PloneMag - Weekly publication, yada yada The following articles have recently been published about Zope: Some article - brief description, . Some article - brief description, . Some article - brief description, . And right now,as far as I know, ZopeMag would be the only entry in the top section :-) > Speaking of the articles. Can someone create a content type that allows > any user on Zope.org to submit these types of links? I believe you just volunteered ;-) Seriously though, what's the process for adding new content types? Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk From chris at simplistix.co.uk Mon Jul 12 05:13:55 2004 From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers) Date: Mon Jul 12 05:13:58 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Updated www.zope.org/About In-Reply-To: <40EAC1AF.5000006@zope.com> References: <40EAC1AF.5000006@zope.com> Message-ID: <40F25653.9070300@simplistix.co.uk> Jim Fulton wrote: > > To bring it into line with our decision to simplify the organization. Apart from the Systemss typo, looks good :-) cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk From chris at simplistix.co.uk Mon Jul 12 05:15:55 2004 From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers) Date: Mon Jul 12 05:15:58 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Systems group In-Reply-To: <40EAEEE4.1010403@zope.com> References: <40EAEEE4.1010403@zope.com> Message-ID: <40F256CB.5020300@simplistix.co.uk> Jim Fulton wrote: > Collector items should just be claimed by people by assigning > items to themselves. If anyone wants to be able to do this, > I'll add them as a collextor supporter. This includes performance issues. I'll bite, sign me up :-) > If someone wants to make a functionality change to the site, I'd > like to follow the "fishbowl" process. That is, I'd like people to > write up short proposals and request comment. We need to figure out > where we'll do this. Is this mailing list sufficient? I'm still striving for low impedence here. I may find myself with an hour or two spare. I can either use that to write a proposal OR fix something. Which would the end users of Zope.org prefer? > Mark, are you setting up a zope.org Wiki? Did someone say > there already was one? Is so, can anyone tell me where? Could probably just grab a bit of ZopeWiki.org for this ;-) Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk From chris at simplistix.co.uk Mon Jul 12 05:18:00 2004 From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers) Date: Mon Jul 12 05:18:04 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Systems group In-Reply-To: <20040706192605.GE1756@slinkp.com> References: <40EAEEE4.1010403@zope.com> <20040706192605.GE1756@slinkp.com> Message-ID: <40F25748.9070401@simplistix.co.uk> Paul Winkler wrote: > On Tue, Jul 06, 2004 at 02:26:44PM -0400, Jim Fulton wrote: > >>Mark, are you setting up a zope.org Wiki? Did someone say >>there already was one? Is so, can anyone tell me where? > > There seem to be a bunch of (very) old ones: > > http://zope.org/Wikis/zope-web/FrontPage > http://zope.org/projects/nzo/FrontPage > http://zope.org/projects/nzo/OldProjectWiki > http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ZopeOrgCollaborationEnhancement/FrontPage I'd like to see any useful information from these scraped to the new Wiki and then the whole festering pile eradicated ;-) Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk From chris at simplistix.co.uk Mon Jul 12 05:19:07 2004 From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers) Date: Mon Jul 12 05:19:10 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Systems group In-Reply-To: References: <40EAEEE4.1010403@zope.com> <20040706192605.GE1756@slinkp.com> <657EA821-CF89-11D8-AE4C-000D932A0486@zopemag.com> <87vfgzr3mb.fsf@smtp.zope.com> <40EDA750.9070409@joyful.com> Message-ID: <40F2578B.2020709@simplistix.co.uk> Ken Manheimer wrote: >>Aside: the permanent #zope-web channel was a really good idea. > > Jim's, i think. No doubt taken from the emerging trend we're seeing, with > more open source projects doing that... I'll hide my slightly peeved look somewhere else then ;-) Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk From rob.page at zope.com Mon Jul 12 12:41:52 2004 From: rob.page at zope.com (Rob Page) Date: Mon Jul 12 12:42:03 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] IRC Session Reminder Message-ID: <60B2F7C8-D422-11D8-810A-000393D58818@zope.com> Hello everyone: Don't forget about the Zope community IRC session tomorrow as follows: - Tue, July 13, 7a (US/EDT, GMT-4) The IRC will occur on irc.freenode.net in the #zope channel. Agenda ------ - ZPL v2.1 Update (Jim Fulton, 10 mins) - Zope.org content group update (Mark Pratt, 20 mins) - Zope.org systems group update (Jim Fulton, 10 mins) - Other topics as suggested Please send agenda suggestions to: - irc_agenda_topics@zope.com Thanks! Regards, Rob -- Rob Page V: 540.361.1710 Zope Corporation F: 703.995.0412 From shane at hathawaymix.org Tue Jul 13 02:37:58 2004 From: shane at hathawaymix.org (Shane Hathaway) Date: Tue Jul 13 02:38:08 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] ZCatalog Issues In-Reply-To: <45B356ED-D354-11D8-A28B-000D9368D272@dataflake.org> References: <200407101308.22670.shane@hathawaymix.org> <45B356ED-D354-11D8-A28B-000D9368D272@dataflake.org> Message-ID: <200407130037.58716.shane@hathawaymix.org> On Sunday 11 July 2004 10:06 am, Jens Vagelpohl wrote: > The first step I would take is to reduce the number of database > connections to 3 for both appservers, just to see how much relief that > brings. I would also fill the box with 4 GB RAM (it's cheap), and then > start to manipulate the cache sizes. Good advice, thanks. > > I wrote a small Python C extension that uses mallinfo() > > to reveal how much heap a Python process is actually using for objects, > > which is often much smaller than the process size as the operating system sees it. > > I'd definitely be interested in this tool. I just posted it here: http://hathawaymix.org/Software/Sketches Shane From morten at nidelven-it.no Tue Jul 13 08:05:20 2004 From: morten at nidelven-it.no (Morten W. Petersen) Date: Tue Jul 13 08:05:28 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Greetings Message-ID: <40F3D000.3020708@nidelven-it.no> Hi all, just wanted to say hi to the web people.. I'll be helping out with some of the design tasks. :) Mark, where do we begin? -Morten From chris at simplistix.co.uk Tue Jul 13 08:29:54 2004 From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers) Date: Tue Jul 13 08:30:00 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] ZCatalog Issues In-Reply-To: <200407130037.58716.shane@hathawaymix.org> References: <200407101308.22670.shane@hathawaymix.org> <45B356ED-D354-11D8-A28B-000D9368D272@dataflake.org> <200407130037.58716.shane@hathawaymix.org> Message-ID: <40F3D5C2.3060002@simplistix.co.uk> Shane Hathaway wrote: > On Sunday 11 July 2004 10:06 am, Jens Vagelpohl wrote: > >>The first step I would take is to reduce the number of database >>connections to 3 for both appservers, just to see how much relief that >>brings. I would also fill the box with 4 GB RAM (it's cheap), and then >>start to manipulate the cache sizes. > > Good advice, thanks. Has anyone done this? Anyone mind if I do? cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk From jim at zope.com Tue Jul 13 08:39:29 2004 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Tue Jul 13 08:39:35 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] ZCatalog Issues In-Reply-To: <200407101308.22670.shane@hathawaymix.org> References: <200407101308.22670.shane@hathawaymix.org> Message-ID: <40F3D801.9000601@zope.com> Shane Hathaway wrote: > On Friday 09 July 2004 16:43 pm, Michael Bernstein wrote: > >>2. Attempting to re-index the ZCatalog (by clicking the 'Update Catalog' >>button in the 'Advanced' tab) causes a timeout or an error message. >>There are over 179k objects, but it is my understanding that ZCatalog >>should scale to that many objects fairly easily. I am given to >>understand that Casey and Shane have been working on fixing this issue. Note that: - scalability is hard - There are a number of dimensions on which to evaluate scalability Reindexing time increases pretty dramtically with catalog size. For better or worse, I don't think it has ever been a priority to make reindexing an entire catalog happen without the browser timing out. One reason for this is that this is generally a very infrequent operation. It ought to be possible to rebuild indexes separately, but I don't know if we ever did this. > > Well, here is what I've learned so far from analyzing the zope.org catalog. > Maybe this will help Casey. Maybe others can help, too. > > I exported the zope.org catalog as a .zexp and wrote a utility that roughly > analyzes .zexp files. It took several hours, but since an export operation > does not unpickle the objects, it finished successfully. > > The total size of the .zexp is 340 MB and it contains 572,231 objects. Here > is a breakdown of the sizes of the objects: > > 214387 objects 0-63 bytes > 115033 objects 64-255 bytes > 202881 objects 256-1023 bytes > 30591 objects 1024-4095 bytes > 5700 objects 4096-16383 bytes > 3434 objects 16384-65535 bytes > 194 objects 65536-131071 bytes > 11 objects 131072-1048575 bytes > 0 objects 1048576-2147483647 bytes > > I decided to first look at the largest objects in detail. I was happy to see > there are no 1 MB objects, but there are two 500K objects and nine objects > between 128K and 200K in size. Each of those 11 objects is either an > IOBucket, an IOBTree, or an IISet. At least three of them unintentionally > contain large, fully-rendered HTML pages (presumably because some indexed > object generates HTML for the given attributes.) > > Note that zope.org currently has its per-connection database cache size set to > 23,000 objects. The catalog can not fit in that space, and even if it did, > we'd run out of memory. Please explain why you think this matters. In normal usage, the catalog should not be loaded into memory in it's entirety. Are you concerned about indexing or about searching? > The box has 2 GB, and between two app servers, there > are eight connections. Each connection maintains its own copy of the > database. 340 MB is probably a low estimate of the catalog's full resident > unpickled size, but I'll use it anyway: keeping this catalog in memory would > take at least 340 MB * 8 = 2.7 GB. That's also ignoring the size of other > objects loaded from the database connections. Given that you are considering more than one database connection, I assume you are worried about searching, not indexing .... > So should we pile RAM into the box and boost the cache size to 600,000? I > think that would be unwise. I've seen evidence that the time spent managing > expiration in the ZODB cache rises exponentially with the number of objects > in the cache. Well, I suppose this is technically true, if - We are loading lots of objects (and thus need to remove a lot of objects from the cache), and - There are lots of objects in the LRU that are not, in fact, ghostifyable. IMO, it's a shame we have non-ghostifyable objects in the LRU. > Flushing a cache containing 20,000 objects can take minutes, Huh? This makes no sense. Flushing objects just frees their state. This should not take minutes. If this is reproduceable, we ought to do some profiling to figure out what the heck is going on. > and flushing a cache containing 60,000 objects can take an hour. Ditto, but more so.... > Also, it's a bit difficult to work on this because it's all in C. And because it's horribly overcomplicated. I'll have more to say on this one of these days on zodb-dev. > It seems like this catalog contains simply too many objects. A third of them > are very small (less that 64 bytes including the class name); I wonder if we > could combine some of these. Interesting. I wonder what these are. > I think I'll next try to find out how many of > the objects are in text indexes and lexicons. This is a tough and painstaking analysis. Good luck. Some things I'd look for: - sorting If we are doing lots of sorted searches, that could cause lots of meta-data to be loaded. I suspect that sorting on application attribtes, such as modification time, is the most common case of catalog abuse. - Too much meta data. - Maybe too many indexes I think a common problem in Zpe sites is that they have a single catalog that is used for a wide variety of independent searches. I think that it would be more efficient in many cases to keep separate catalogs geared toward separate kids of searches. I think it would be interesting to analyze: - What sorts of searches people are doing and how much time they take. Is there an option to turn on elapsed time in the regular hit log? If not, there should be. - For searches that take a lot of time, analyze how many and what sorts of objects are loaded to accomplish the searches. In summary, if a catalog is being used *properly*, only a small fraction (decreasing with increasing catalog size) of the catalog should be loaded at any point in time. I fear we make catalog abuse too easy though. > There is a bit of good news: zope.org is not consuming gobs of RAM due to a > memory leak. I wrote a small Python C extension that uses mallinfo() to > reveal how much heap a Python process is actually using for objects, which is > often much smaller than the process size as the operating system sees it. > Whenever I flush the caches in Zope, its heap usage shrinks to less than 10% > of its process size. That means most of the memory is consumed by > reclaimable ZODB objects. (I'll post the C extension on the web if anyone is > interested.) But. over time, is the size it shrinks to constant? Ot is it increasing? Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From lists at andreas-jung.com Tue Jul 13 09:00:41 2004 From: lists at andreas-jung.com (Andreas Jung) Date: Tue Jul 13 09:00:22 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] ZCatalog Issues In-Reply-To: <40F3D801.9000601@zope.com> References: <200407101308.22670.shane@hathawaymix.org> <40F3D801.9000601@zope.com> Message-ID: <101ABD58B4973605D6148E60@[192.168.0.102]> --On Dienstag, 13. Juli 2004 8:39 Uhr -0400 Jim Fulton wrote: > > Reindexing time increases pretty dramtically with catalog size. > For better or worse, I don't think it has ever been a priority > to make reindexing an entire catalog happen without the browser > timing out. One reason for this is that this is generally a very > infrequent operation. It ought to be possible to rebuild indexes > separately, but I don't know if we ever did this. > We have a CMS with several mounted partitions containing up to 400k objects each indexed with a catalog on each parition. To reindex parts of the zcatalog (e.g. after changing some index settings) I usually start a ZEO client and reindex from the console using catalog.manage_reindexIndex(someindx). The real problem is that you never know what is happening ..for this reasons I added some code so you can see how documents have been reindexed and how much are in the queue. Using subtransaction + progress informations is a reasonable way to maintain large catalogs without having the feeling that your instance might explode at any time. Andreas From shane at hathawaymix.org Tue Jul 13 10:28:23 2004 From: shane at hathawaymix.org (Shane Hathaway) Date: Tue Jul 13 10:28:28 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] ZCatalog Issues In-Reply-To: <40F3D801.9000601@zope.com> References: <200407101308.22670.shane@hathawaymix.org> <40F3D801.9000601@zope.com> Message-ID: <200407130828.24152.shane@hathawaymix.org> On Tuesday 13 July 2004 06:39 am, Jim Fulton wrote: > Shane Hathaway wrote: > > Flushing a cache containing 20,000 objects can take minutes, > > Huh? This makes no sense. Flushing objects just frees their > state. This should not take minutes. If this is reproduceable, > we ought to do some profiling to figure out what the heck is > going on. It's just an observation. I postulate it happens because ZODB frees the objects in layers: it peels away all the unreferenced objects, revealing more objects that are now unreferenced, and iterates along those lines. If for some reason it peels off only one object per pass, the total operation is O(n^2 / 2). > > It seems like this catalog contains simply too many objects. A third of > > them are very small (less that 64 bytes including the class name); I > > wonder if we could combine some of these. > > Interesting. I wonder what these are. > > > I think I'll next try to find out how many of > > > > the objects are in text indexes and lexicons. > > This is a tough and painstaking analysis. Good luck. I was thinking I'd just export the lexicons and text indexes as .zexps. I haven't done it yet. > Some things I'd look for: > > - sorting > > If we are doing lots of sorted searches, that could cause lots of > meta-data to be loaded. I suspect that sorting on application > attribtes, such as modification time, is the most common case of catalog > abuse. Yet for usability, we virtually always want to sort. > - Too much meta data. Agreed. Unfortunately, it's hard to tell which metadata fields zope.org actually needs. > - Maybe too many indexes > > I think a common problem in Zpe sites is that they have a single catalog > that is used for a wide variety of independent searches. I think that > it would be more efficient in many cases to keep separate catalogs geared > toward separate kids of searches. That's an interesting idea. I wonder if we could apply it here. > I think it would be interesting to analyze: > > - What sorts of searches people are doing and how much time they take. > Is there an option to turn on elapsed time in the regular hit log? If > not, there should be. There should be, yes. > - For searches that take a lot of time, analyze how many and what sorts of > objects are loaded to accomplish the searches. > > In summary, if a catalog is being used *properly*, only a small fraction > (decreasing with increasing catalog size) of the catalog should be > loaded at any point in time. I fear we make catalog abuse too easy though. Yep. > > > There is a bit of good news: zope.org is not consuming gobs of RAM due to > > a memory leak. I wrote a small Python C extension that uses mallinfo() > > to reveal how much heap a Python process is actually using for objects, > > which is often much smaller than the process size as the operating system > > sees it. Whenever I flush the caches in Zope, its heap usage shrinks to > > less than 10% of its process size. That means most of the memory is > > consumed by reclaimable ZODB objects. (I'll post the C extension on the > > web if anyone is interested.) > > But. over time, is the size it shrinks to constant? Ot is it increasing? My point was that the shrunken size is small enough that I don't care. I'm almost sure it increases over time, indicating a memory leak or two, but the leak is small enough that it's not a priority. Shane From jens at dataflake.org Tue Jul 13 10:39:49 2004 From: jens at dataflake.org (Jens Vagelpohl) Date: Tue Jul 13 10:39:56 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] ZCatalog Issues In-Reply-To: <200407130828.24152.shane@hathawaymix.org> References: <200407101308.22670.shane@hathawaymix.org> <40F3D801.9000601@zope.com> <200407130828.24152.shane@hathawaymix.org> Message-ID: <7E833DE9-D4DA-11D8-8BFE-000D9368D272@dataflake.org> >> I think it would be interesting to analyze: >> >> - What sorts of searches people are doing and how much time they take. >> Is there an option to turn on elapsed time in the regular hit log? >> If >> not, there should be. > > There should be, yes. The Big-M log allows you a "guess" at search times by looking at the rendering time for the search results page. It definitely showed the extreme search times for VTS... jens From jim at zope.com Tue Jul 13 12:42:47 2004 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Tue Jul 13 12:42:52 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Volunteers to help out wirth webmaster mail Message-ID: <40F41107.9040408@zope.com> If anyone wants to help out with webmaster mail, you should subscribe to zope.org-webmaster@zope.org: http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zopeorg-webmaster Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From chris at simplistix.co.uk Tue Jul 13 12:58:37 2004 From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers) Date: Tue Jul 13 12:58:44 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] ZCatalog Issues In-Reply-To: <7E833DE9-D4DA-11D8-8BFE-000D9368D272@dataflake.org> References: <200407101308.22670.shane@hathawaymix.org> <40F3D801.9000601@zope.com> <200407130828.24152.shane@hathawaymix.org> <7E833DE9-D4DA-11D8-8BFE-000D9368D272@dataflake.org> Message-ID: <40F414BD.2030506@simplistix.co.uk> Jens Vagelpohl wrote: > The Big-M log allows you a "guess" at search times by looking at the > rendering time for the search results page. It definitely showed the > extreme search times for VTS... VTS? Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk From chris at simplistix.co.uk Tue Jul 13 13:00:34 2004 From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers) Date: Tue Jul 13 13:00:45 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] ZCatalog: Rebuilding indexes seperately In-Reply-To: <40F3D801.9000601@zope.com> References: <200407101308.22670.shane@hathawaymix.org> <40F3D801.9000601@zope.com> Message-ID: <40F41532.2070709@simplistix.co.uk> Jim Fulton wrote: > infrequent operation. It ought to be possible to rebuild indexes > separately, but I don't know if we ever did this. Some did. It did something pretty brain dead but I remember fixing it on the Zope 2 HEAD so it should be okay now... Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk From chris at simplistix.co.uk Tue Jul 13 13:04:47 2004 From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers) Date: Tue Jul 13 13:04:55 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] ZCatalog Issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40F4162F.9030707@simplistix.co.uk> Michael Bernstein wrote: > 1. It takes a *very* long time to view the indexes tab (this was > something I thought Casey had fixed, but the problem seems to have > re-emerged). This is still a bug in Zope general last time I checked. It's the column showing the number of objects in each index that causes the problem. I fix this by just commenting out the value in the column in the DTML.. > 2. Attempting to re-index the ZCatalog (by clicking the 'Update Catalog' > button in the 'Advanced' tab) causes a timeout or an error message. > There are over 179k objects, but it is my understanding that ZCatalog > should scale to that many objects fairly easily. I am given to > understand that Casey and Shane have been working on fixing this issue. That's just a browser time-out, don't worry, Zope will be plodding away in the background... > 3. Due to #2, it is as yet impractical to add new indexes to the > ZCatalog in order to solve various issues with the site. For example, I > added a title_or_id FieldIndex to the ZCatalog in early May to help > solve a problem with the Product listings. As of now, this index is only > aware of 6211 objects out of the 179k. These are only the objects that > have been added or edited since I created the index. As a result, I > can't solve the Products issue (though I have hidden it in the > meantime). I have also been reluctant to tackle the HowTo listings until > the ZCatalog problems are solved (or some reasonable facsimile thereof) > for the same reason. I shouldn't be too hard to build a ZEO client that processes a list of objects that need to be indexes, with that being it's only role in life. The main ZCatalog's catalog_object method could then just be replaced to spit out object paths to a log for this ZEO client to mull through. I thought queuedcatalog alread ydid something like this though? Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk From chris at simplistix.co.uk Tue Jul 13 13:06:00 2004 From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers) Date: Tue Jul 13 13:06:15 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] News and Product listings broken In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40F41678.2090705@simplistix.co.uk> Michael Haubenwallner wrote: > Creators/Reviewers of "News Items" or "Software Releases": > > please be aware, that due to a change in the catalog-query > your news will be shown in the areas on zope.org frontpage > (right column, bottom) _only_ if you set the "Effective Date" > when publishing the item. If you're made this change, you need to announce it more widely. I'd suggest zope@zope.org and zope-announce at a minimum... Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk From michael at d2m.at Tue Jul 13 13:09:53 2004 From: michael at d2m.at (Michael Haubenwallner) Date: Tue Jul 13 13:10:12 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] News and Product listings broken In-Reply-To: <40F41678.2090705@simplistix.co.uk> References: <40F41678.2090705@simplistix.co.uk> Message-ID: Chris Withers wrote: > Michael Haubenwallner wrote: > >> Creators/Reviewers of "News Items" or "Software Releases": >> >> please be aware, that due to a change in the catalog-query >> your news will be shown in the areas on zope.org frontpage >> (right column, bottom) _only_ if you set the "Effective Date" >> when publishing the item. > > > If you're made this change, you need to announce it more widely. > I'd suggest zope@zope.org and zope-announce at a minimum... > > Chris > No, i have not made that change - i (for the 3rd time now) just inform people that a change has been made. Michael From webmaven at cox.net Tue Jul 13 13:17:02 2004 From: webmaven at cox.net (Michael Bernstein) Date: Tue Jul 13 13:17:32 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Volunteers to help out wirth webmaster mail In-Reply-To: <40F41107.9040408@zope.com> References: <40F41107.9040408@zope.com> Message-ID: Jim Fulton wrote: > > If anyone wants to help out with webmaster mail, you should subscribe to > zope.org-webmaster@zope.org: > > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zopeorg-webmaster Uhh... is just *anyone* allowed to subscribe? -- - Michael R. Bernstein | Author of Zope Bible michaelbernstein.com | & Zope.org Webmaster panhedron.com | PythonPhotos.org From jim at zope.com Tue Jul 13 13:27:04 2004 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Tue Jul 13 13:27:11 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Volunteers to help out wirth webmaster mail In-Reply-To: References: <40F41107.9040408@zope.com> Message-ID: <40F41B68.4050406@zope.com> Michael Bernstein wrote: > Jim Fulton wrote: > >> >> If anyone wants to help out with webmaster mail, you should subscribe to >> zope.org-webmaster@zope.org: >> >> http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zopeorg-webmaster > > > Uhh... is just *anyone* allowed to subscribe? Only spammers. ;) Subscriptions require approval. I'll be very selective. :) Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From andrew at zope.com Tue Jul 13 13:40:42 2004 From: andrew at zope.com (Andrew Sawyers) Date: Tue Jul 13 13:40:51 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] News and Product listings broken In-Reply-To: References: <40F41678.2090705@simplistix.co.uk> Message-ID: <40F41E9A.8070202@zope.com> Michael Haubenwallner wrote: > Chris Withers wrote: > >> Michael Haubenwallner wrote: >> >>> Creators/Reviewers of "News Items" or "Software Releases": >>> >>> please be aware, that due to a change in the catalog-query >>> your news will be shown in the areas on zope.org frontpage >>> (right column, bottom) _only_ if you set the "Effective Date" >>> when publishing the item. >> >> >> >> If you're made this change, you need to announce it more widely. >> I'd suggest zope@zope.org and zope-announce at a minimum... >> >> Chris >> > > No, i have not made that change - i (for the 3rd time now) just inform > people that a change has been made. > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ > Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web Tres made the change some time ago - he and I spoke about it the other night, and it seems that the content objects are not getting a sane default if it's not explicitly set. I think the right fix would be to use 'now' if the Effective Date isn't supplied. Andrew -- Zope Corporation Software Engineer (540) 361-1700 From simon at joyful.com Tue Jul 13 14:48:17 2004 From: simon at joyful.com (Simon Michael) Date: Tue Jul 13 14:51:40 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Systems group In-Reply-To: <40F25748.9070401@simplistix.co.uk> References: <40EAEEE4.1010403@zope.com> <20040706192605.GE1756@slinkp.com> <40F25748.9070401@simplistix.co.uk> Message-ID: >> http://zope.org/Wikis/zope-web/FrontPage >> http://zope.org/projects/nzo/FrontPage >> http://zope.org/projects/nzo/OldProjectWiki >> http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ZopeOrgCollaborationEnhancement/FrontPage > > I'd like to see any useful information from these scraped to the new > Wiki and then the whole festering pile eradicated ;-) +1 From jens at dataflake.org Tue Jul 13 14:53:59 2004 From: jens at dataflake.org (Jens Vagelpohl) Date: Tue Jul 13 14:54:11 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] ZCatalog Issues In-Reply-To: <40F414BD.2030506@simplistix.co.uk> References: <200407101308.22670.shane@hathawaymix.org> <40F3D801.9000601@zope.com> <200407130828.24152.shane@hathawaymix.org> <7E833DE9-D4DA-11D8-8BFE-000D9368D272@dataflake.org> <40F414BD.2030506@simplistix.co.uk> Message-ID: <0023CE98-D4FE-11D8-A9A4-000D9368D272@dataflake.org> On Jul 13, 2004, at 12:58 PM, Chris Withers wrote: > Jens Vagelpohl wrote: >> The Big-M log allows you a "guess" at search times by looking at the >> rendering time for the search results page. It definitely showed the >> extreme search times for VTS... > > VTS? > > Chris Nothing to concern you, Chris. Just an example for ZC people. jens From simon at joyful.com Tue Jul 13 14:52:33 2004 From: simon at joyful.com (Simon Michael) Date: Tue Jul 13 15:01:18 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] ZCatalog Issues In-Reply-To: <40F4162F.9030707@simplistix.co.uk> References: <40F4162F.9030707@simplistix.co.uk> Message-ID: >> 1. It takes a *very* long time to view the indexes tab (this was FYI the Zope 2.7 release notes say this is fixed. From jim at zope.com Tue Jul 13 18:51:18 2004 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Tue Jul 13 18:51:29 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] ZCatalog Issues In-Reply-To: <200407130828.24152.shane@hathawaymix.org> References: <200407101308.22670.shane@hathawaymix.org> <40F3D801.9000601@zope.com> <200407130828.24152.shane@hathawaymix.org> Message-ID: <40F46766.7020405@zope.com> Shane Hathaway wrote: > On Tuesday 13 July 2004 06:39 am, Jim Fulton wrote: > >>Shane Hathaway wrote: >> > Flushing a cache containing 20,000 objects can take minutes, >> >>Huh? This makes no sense. Flushing objects just frees their >>state. This should not take minutes. If this is reproduceable, >>we ought to do some profiling to figure out what the heck is >>going on. > > > It's just an observation. I postulate it happens because ZODB frees the > objects in layers: it peels away all the unreferenced objects, revealing more > objects that are now unreferenced, and iterates along those lines. If for > some reason it peels off only one object per pass, the total operation is > O(n^2 / 2). I assume that by flushing the cache, you mean calling minimize on eac of the caches. The minimuze function will make a pass through the cache deactivating all of the objects. As that happens, objects become unreferenced. When an object becomes unreferenced, it makes a weakref-style callback into the cache which caues the cache to remove it. All of this should be pretty fast. You may have bigger fish to fry, but I'd really like to see Python profile, and maybe a C profile output for this, if it is reproduceable. There is definately something wrong here. There's always a chance that it could offer some insight into othe woes. ... >>Some things I'd look for: >> >>- sorting >> >> If we are doing lots of sorted searches, that could cause lots of >> meta-data to be loaded. I suspect that sorting on application >>attribtes, such as modification time, is the most common case of catalog >>abuse. > > > Yet for usability, we virtually always want to sort. We should probably explore this further. Note that sorting by relevence rank isn't so bad. I was refering to sorting on data fields. Sorting search results on data fields is hard or impossible to do scalably. I can imagine easily creating a scalability trap. > >>- Too much meta data. > > > Agreed. Unfortunately, it's hard to tell which metadata fields zope.org > actually needs. Yup. >>- Maybe too many indexes >> >> I think a common problem in Zpe sites is that they have a single catalog >> that is used for a wide variety of independent searches. I think that >>it would be more efficient in many cases to keep separate catalogs geared >>toward separate kids of searches. > > > That's an interesting idea. I wonder if we could apply it here. It's like meta data. To apply it, you need to understand how the system is using the catalog. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From shane at hathawaymix.org Wed Jul 14 00:41:40 2004 From: shane at hathawaymix.org (Shane Hathaway) Date: Wed Jul 14 00:41:51 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] ZCatalog Issues In-Reply-To: <20040714024250.0297E3B8038@smtp.zope.com> References: <20040714024250.0297E3B8038@smtp.zope.com> Message-ID: <200407132241.41256.shane@hathawaymix.org> On Tuesday 13 July 2004 20:42 pm, Tim Peters wrote: > [Shane Hathaway] > > > It's just an observation. I postulate it happens because ZODB frees the > > objects in layers: it peels away all the unreferenced objects, revealing > > more objects that are now unreferenced, and iterates along those lines. > > If for some reason it peels off only one object per pass, the total > > operation is O(n^2 / 2). > > Shane, I'm not sure what "flushing the cache" means. This is what the Zope Management Interface calls it. To call DB.cacheMinimize(), most people go to Control_Panel -> Database -> Flush Cache, then push the "minimize" button. > There's a cache > minimization operation, and if that's what it means, since we moved to the > circular linked-list implementation of the pickle cache that makes at most > one pass over the cache. It visits objects from least- to most-recently > used, ghostifying up-to-date objects as it goes along. It stops when the > cache target size is reached, or when it's gone around the ring once, > whichever happens first. My understanding may be outdated. I recall there were two operations: one that made a best attempt through a single pass, and another that repeatedly scanned the cache, stopping when the previous scan did not evict any objects. I'll work on reproducing the behavior I've seen. Shane From shane at hathawaymix.org Wed Jul 14 00:56:34 2004 From: shane at hathawaymix.org (Shane Hathaway) Date: Wed Jul 14 00:56:44 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] ZCatalog Issues In-Reply-To: <20040714024732.9CC463B8038@smtp.zope.com> References: <20040714024732.9CC463B8038@smtp.zope.com> Message-ID: <200407132256.34837.shane@hathawaymix.org> On Tuesday 13 July 2004 20:47 pm, Tim Peters wrote: > BTW, I've spent many hours editing fat parts of the ZODB Wiki over the last > week, and response time has been so good (on all of login, navigating to > the right page (I can never remember Wiki URLs), hitting the Edit button, > and hitting the Save-Changes button) the whole time that I haven't given up > in exasperation even once. That's unprecedented in my experiences on > zope.org. I don't know whether I have you to thank, but if you want to > claim the glory, I won't call your bluff . I'd like to think I fixed it. :-) Every page loaded by people with reviewer rights searched the catalog to display how many items are pending review. I replaced the fancy search with a simple link to a page for reviewers. The catalog apparently can't handle the load we were giving it. I think catalogs in general are efficient, but something is configured badly in that catalog and it's difficult to figure out what it is. Shane From shane at hathawaymix.org Wed Jul 14 01:33:09 2004 From: shane at hathawaymix.org (Shane Hathaway) Date: Wed Jul 14 01:33:22 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] ZCatalog Issues In-Reply-To: <40F3D5C2.3060002@simplistix.co.uk> References: <200407130037.58716.shane@hathawaymix.org> <40F3D5C2.3060002@simplistix.co.uk> Message-ID: <200407132333.09184.shane@hathawaymix.org> On Tuesday 13 July 2004 06:29 am, Chris Withers wrote: > Shane Hathaway wrote: > > On Sunday 11 July 2004 10:06 am, Jens Vagelpohl wrote: > >>The first step I would take is to reduce the number of database > >>connections to 3 for both appservers, just to see how much relief that > >>brings. I would also fill the box with 4 GB RAM (it's cheap), and then > >>start to manipulate the cache sizes. > > > > Good advice, thanks. > > Has anyone done this? > > Anyone mind if I do? Do we want to limit the number of database connections or the number of threads? I've limited the number of database connections before using dbtab.conf, but I only did it that way for convenience in a particular situation. Zope usually has 4 threads that share up to 7 connections. Zope's effective concurrency is the lower of the two numbers, but threads consume operating system resources while never-opened connections do not. So we ought to reduce threads first. Shane From simon at joyful.com Wed Jul 14 16:46:44 2004 From: simon at joyful.com (Simon Michael) Date: Wed Jul 14 16:50:09 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] ZCatalog Issues In-Reply-To: <200407132256.34837.shane@hathawaymix.org> References: <20040714024732.9CC463B8038@smtp.zope.com> <200407132256.34837.shane@hathawaymix.org> Message-ID: > I'd like to think I fixed it. :-) Every page loaded by people with reviewer > rights searched the catalog to display how many items are pending review. I > replaced the fancy search with a simple link to a page for reviewers. I don't remember how it was, but zope.org wiki speed feels good right now. Shane - you rock! From peter at sabaini.at Wed Jul 14 20:08:21 2004 From: peter at sabaini.at (Peter Sabaini) Date: Wed Jul 14 20:26:33 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Are Versions evil? Message-ID: <40F5CAF5.5050401@sabaini.at> Are Zope Version objects evil? I'm doing a bit of work on the Zope Book and have stumbled across the section describing Versions (I dont use them myself). I seem to remember that some people encountered bugs using Versions and there has even been talk[1] of deprecating[2] them; on the other hand there isn't much in the way of bug reports about Versions in the Collector[3]. Has anyone had trouble using Versions recently? Should I advise against using Versions in the Zope Book? Thanks, peter. [1] http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-dev/2003-June/019731.html [2] http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zodb-dev/2004-January/006573.html [3] #922 describes a critical problem but is seemingly hard to reproduce From lists at andreas-jung.com Thu Jul 15 01:02:25 2004 From: lists at andreas-jung.com (Andreas Jung) Date: Thu Jul 15 01:02:14 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Are Versions evil? In-Reply-To: <40F5CAF5.5050401@sabaini.at> References: <40F5CAF5.5050401@sabaini.at> Message-ID: You're using the wrong list. Please use zope@zope.org for Zope related questions. -aj --On Donnerstag, 15. Juli 2004 2:08 Uhr +0200 Peter Sabaini wrote: > Are Zope Version objects evil? I'm doing a bit of work on the Zope Book > and have stumbled across the section describing Versions (I dont use them > myself). I seem to remember that some people encountered bugs using > Versions and there has even been talk[1] of deprecating[2] them; on the > other hand there isn't much in the way of bug reports about Versions in > the Collector[3]. > > Has anyone had trouble using Versions recently? > > Should I advise against using Versions in the Zope Book? > > Thanks, > peter. > > [1] http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-dev/2003-June/019731.html > [2] http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zodb-dev/2004-January/006573.html > [3] #922 describes a critical problem but is seemingly hard to reproduce > > > _______________________________________________ > Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web From michael at d2m.at Thu Jul 15 02:25:13 2004 From: michael at d2m.at (Michael Haubenwallner) Date: Thu Jul 15 02:25:38 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Are Versions evil? In-Reply-To: References: <40F5CAF5.5050401@sabaini.at> Message-ID: Andreas Jung wrote: > You're using the wrong list. Please use zope@zope.org for Zope related > questions. > > -aj > Uh-oh. Seems to be one of these MacBitter days again. After all these years you should know Peter by his name already, as a contributor/author of the ZopeBook he deserves a better answer. Noise about using Versions or not was very high (although in Plone community mostly) and for me there was no straight answer given, but "do not use it, better don't not ask me why". Then, another Zope release died the discussion down and it never came up again. 2 cents from me. Michael > --On Donnerstag, 15. Juli 2004 2:08 Uhr +0200 Peter Sabaini > wrote: > >> Are Zope Version objects evil? I'm doing a bit of work on the Zope Book >> and have stumbled across the section describing Versions (I dont use them >> myself). I seem to remember that some people encountered bugs using >> Versions and there has even been talk[1] of deprecating[2] them; on the >> other hand there isn't much in the way of bug reports about Versions in >> the Collector[3]. >> >> Has anyone had trouble using Versions recently? >> >> Should I advise against using Versions in the Zope Book? >> >> Thanks, >> peter. >> >> [1] http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-dev/2003-June/019731.html >> [2] http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zodb-dev/2004-January/006573.html >> [3] #922 describes a critical problem but is seemingly hard to reproduce >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org >> http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web > From chris at simplistix.co.uk Thu Jul 15 16:59:25 2004 From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers) Date: Thu Jul 15 16:59:50 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] ZCatalog Issues In-Reply-To: <0023CE98-D4FE-11D8-A9A4-000D9368D272@dataflake.org> References: <200407101308.22670.shane@hathawaymix.org> <40F3D801.9000601@zope.com> <200407130828.24152.shane@hathawaymix.org> <7E833DE9-D4DA-11D8-8BFE-000D9368D272@dataflake.org> <40F414BD.2030506@simplistix.co.uk> <0023CE98-D4FE-11D8-A9A4-000D9368D272@dataflake.org> Message-ID: <40F6F02D.1000404@simplistix.co.uk> Jens Vagelpohl wrote: > Nothing to concern you, Chris. Just an example for ZC people. Well, if it's that private, keep it to a private list ;-) As it is, most of us have probably signed NDA's by now anyway... Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk From chris at simplistix.co.uk Thu Jul 15 17:02:49 2004 From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers) Date: Thu Jul 15 17:03:31 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] News and Product listings broken In-Reply-To: References: <40F41678.2090705@simplistix.co.uk> Message-ID: <40F6F0F9.3020204@simplistix.co.uk> Michael Haubenwallner wrote: >> If you're made this change, you need to announce it more widely. >> I'd suggest zope@zope.org and zope-announce at a minimum... >> > No, i have not made that change - i (for the 3rd time now) just inform > people that a change has been made. That doesn't change the fact you need to announce it more widely... Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk From michael at d2m.at Sat Jul 17 05:27:09 2004 From: michael at d2m.at (Michael Haubenwallner) Date: Sat Jul 17 05:27:22 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope.org Collector news Message-ID: To let you know whats going on: I have put some problems recently found with zope.org and through webmaster@zope.org in the collector: http://zope.org/Collectors/ZopeOrg (starting from #348) Please report any issues with the site there too. Michael http://zope.org/Members/d2m From webmaster at zopeur.org Mon Jul 19 13:45:12 2004 From: webmaster at zopeur.org (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Tarek_Ziad=E9?=) Date: Mon Jul 19 13:45:21 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] volunteering Message-ID: <40FC08A8.4090309@zopeur.org> Hello, I have signed the TOS agreement and I am sending the other one by regular mail. I am looking forward to participate to zope.org effort :) I have read interesting posts by Michael H. latelyt and maybe I could help out on this direction ? Cheers, Tarek Ziad? / Zopeur.org webmaster From jim at zope.com Wed Jul 21 10:22:08 2004 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Wed Jul 21 10:22:29 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Recent changes to zope.org software? Message-ID: <40FE7C10.1030107@zope.com> Have there been any recent changes to the zope.org software? Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From jim at zope.com Wed Jul 21 11:50:17 2004 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Wed Jul 21 11:50:39 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Documentation/Wiki Message-ID: <40FE90B9.5010306@zope.com> Mark, A few days ago, you asked me to create Documentation/Wiki. Sorry, I forgit about this and just got this done today. Please check it out and see if it works for you. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From jim at zope.com Wed Jul 21 12:03:14 2004 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Wed Jul 21 12:03:37 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Systems priorities Message-ID: <40FE93C2.8070506@zope.com> We need to organize our work a bit. For starters, I think we need to prioritize what needs to get done. I suggest we use the tracker: http://www.zope.org/Collectors/ZopeOrg In particular, I suggest that the systems group should be working on issues marked "accepted" and "critical". We, as a group should be be deciding which issues are accepted and critical There are four accepted critical issues currently. I don't know if these are the most imprtant things to work on. If not, let's get the right ones on that list (and the wrong ones off). Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From michael at d2m.at Wed Jul 21 14:55:08 2004 From: michael at d2m.at (Michael Haubenwallner) Date: Wed Jul 21 14:56:03 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope.org Collector news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Michael Haubenwallner wrote: > To let you know whats going on: > > I have put some problems recently found with zope.org and through > webmaster@zope.org in the collector: > http://zope.org/Collectors/ZopeOrg (starting from #348) > I have looked into zope.org a few days now and need your help with some problems i found. Talking to JimFulton today in #zope-web he suggested to write-up a ToDo list to get the urgent issues done. most urgent - http://zope.org/Collectors/ZopeOrg/356 #356 zope.org ZCatalog issues security critical - http://zope.org/Collectors/ZopeOrg/353 #353 Workflow is broken pending (and lately even private) objects are visible to Anonymous critical - http://zope.org/Collectors/ZopeOrg/352 #352 Search results are missing objects search is performed on meta_type attributes http://zope.org/Collectors/ZopeOrg/355 #355 Objects containing unicode characters are not (re)indexed http://zope.org/Collectors/ZopeOrg/151 #151 Migration did not convert HowTos software - http://zope.org/Collectors/ZopeOrg/348 #348 reportlab module is missing on the fly pdf generation is broken Most of the troubles will (hopefully) go away when the catalog issue is resolved. Michael (d2m) From andrew at zope.com Wed Jul 21 18:18:52 2004 From: andrew at zope.com (Andrew Sawyers) Date: Wed Jul 21 18:19:02 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Recent changes to zope.org software? In-Reply-To: <40FE7C10.1030107@zope.com> References: <40FE7C10.1030107@zope.com> Message-ID: <40FEEBCC.4090708@zope.com> Jim Fulton wrote: > > Have there been any recent changes to the zope.org software? > > Jim > I installed Report Labs the other day because it was not migrated (we rebuilt python after the move). If there were other packages installed in site-packages, they're likely missing as well. I'll try to get some bandwidth to look at this on the old server tomorrow. Andrew -- Zope Corporation Software Engineer (540) 361-1700 From jim at zope.com Wed Jul 21 18:31:05 2004 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Wed Jul 21 18:31:16 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Recent changes to zope.org software? In-Reply-To: <40FEEBCC.4090708@zope.com> References: <40FE7C10.1030107@zope.com> <40FEEBCC.4090708@zope.com> Message-ID: <40FEEEA9.7020108@zope.com> Andrew Sawyers wrote: > Jim Fulton wrote: > >> >> Have there been any recent changes to the zope.org software? This was too vague a question. Sorry. The performance of the site seemed to be really bad earlier today. I was wondering what might have changed that could have affected performance. > I installed Report Labs the other day because it was not migrated (we > rebuilt python after the move). Is this used to do on-line pdf generation? > If there were other packages installed > in site-packages, they're likely missing as well. I'll try to get some > bandwidth to look at this on the old server tomorrow. OK. Tres is going to look at the state of the build-out process. There was originally a build-out script/make file, but I suspect it's out of sync with the software. I'd like to get to the point where we can rebuild the software automatically. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From michael at d2m.at Thu Jul 22 02:43:16 2004 From: michael at d2m.at (Michael Haubenwallner) Date: Thu Jul 22 02:43:41 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope.org Collector news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Michael Haubenwallner wrote: > critical - > http://zope.org/Collectors/ZopeOrg/352 > #352 Search results are missing objects > search is performed on meta_type attributes > i changed the search script to search for 'portal_type' instead of 'meta_type'. this increases search result volume by 0-10 times. the drawback is, that HowTos exist in 2 object versions (they old HowTos have not been migrated - zope.org collector #151, the new HowTos are CMFDocuments) and old HowTos are not found after the change to the search script. do you know of any other object types that exist in different versions ? Michael (d2m) From chris at simplistix.co.uk Sun Jul 25 05:08:48 2004 From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers) Date: Sun Jul 25 05:08:51 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] svn/cvs.zope.org Message-ID: <410378A0.1080901@simplistix.co.uk> Hi All, Found a bug in ZCatalog, wanted to check it in (even wrote tests!) but went to svn.zope.org to find: SubversionException: ('Berkeley DB error while getting youngest revision (finding last entry) for filesystem /svn/repos/main/db:\nCannot allocate memory', 160029) ...and would have liked to ssh to the box and restart subversion to free up memory and then drop a note here. ...but couldn't. Which raises some questions: Is the box in the subject also in the zope.org cluster? If so, how do I go about getting shell access to it? Is the setup of the svn and cvs software on their documented anywhere, particularly from a "poke this if this happens" point of view? cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk From jim at zope.com Sun Jul 25 12:43:04 2004 From: jim at zope.com (Jim Fulton) Date: Sun Jul 25 12:43:47 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] svn/cvs.zope.org In-Reply-To: <410378A0.1080901@simplistix.co.uk> References: <410378A0.1080901@simplistix.co.uk> Message-ID: <4103E318.9080905@zope.com> Chris Withers wrote: > Hi All, > > Found a bug in ZCatalog, wanted to check it in (even wrote tests!) but > went to svn.zope.org to find: > > SubversionException: ('Berkeley DB error while getting youngest revision > (finding last entry) for filesystem /svn/repos/main/db:\nCannot allocate > memory', 160029) > > ...and would have liked to ssh to the box and restart subversion to free > up memory and then drop a note here. > > ...but couldn't. > > Which raises some questions: > > Is the box in the subject also in the zope.org cluster? Yes > If so, how do I go about getting shell access to it? We'll need to grant it. > Is the setup of the svn and cvs software on their documented anywhere, > particularly from a "poke this if this happens" point of view? No, I need to do that. I recovered the BDB databases, as needed. Jim -- Jim Fulton mailto:jim@zope.com Python Powered! CTO (540) 361-1714 http://www.python.org Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com http://www.zope.org From tseaver at zope.com Mon Jul 26 12:46:04 2004 From: tseaver at zope.com (Tres Seaver) Date: Mon Jul 26 12:46:40 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Recent changes to zope.org software? In-Reply-To: <40FEEEA9.7020108@zope.com> References: <40FE7C10.1030107@zope.com> <40FEEBCC.4090708@zope.com> <40FEEEA9.7020108@zope.com> Message-ID: <4105354C.8080503@zope.com> Jim Fulton wrote: > Andrew Sawyers wrote: > >> Jim Fulton wrote: >> >>> >>> Have there been any recent changes to the zope.org software? > > > This was too vague a question. Sorry. > > The performance of the site seemed to be really bad earlier today. > I was wondering what might have changed that could have affected > performance. > > >> I installed Report Labs the other day because it was not migrated (we >> rebuilt python after the move). > > > Is this used to do on-line pdf generation? > > > If there were other packages installed > >> in site-packages, they're likely missing as well. I'll try to get >> some bandwidth to look at this on the old server tomorrow. > > > OK. Tres is going to look at the state of the build-out process. > There was originally a build-out script/make file, but I suspect > it's out of sync with the software. I'd like to get to the point > where we can rebuild the software automatically. We are close. Interested parties please try the following: $ svn co svn+ssh://svn.zope.org/repos/zope.org/buildout $ cd buildout $ make $ bin/zeoctl start $ bin/zopectl start # need to tweak etc/zope.conf first Note a couple of things about the current state: - It relies on many more "local" versions of software than is sane (there are a ton of things I had to vendor-import to make a reproducible build). The production server should *never* run from un-tagged head or branch checkouts! All the "local imports" I made have the tag '${PRODUCT_NAME}-zopeorg_20040721'. - One priority would be to work at removing ost of those local imports, replacing them with released versions. The ZopeOrg product itself (and maybe CMFPackage) might remain "unreleased", but should still have a "real" tag associtated with them. - Another priority would be to evalutate the feasibility of getting Zope, CMF, etc. upgraded to current versions (e.g., the Zope we are running is pre-Crack-a-Zope). At a minimum, I would recommend moving to Zope 2.6.4 and CMF 1.3.3; better would be to get to Zope 2.7.2 and CMF 1.4.5 (that might require a Plone upgrade, as well). More risky would be to try to get up and running on some tagged pre-2.8 version (but it would allow us to begin exercising that codebase, a la dogfood). - I didn't incorporate all the "legacy" products needed for the "cruft" objects in the old (but still current) ZODB. I would argue that we should do a true migration into a new ZODB storage, leaving behind such objects, anyway. Tres. -- =============================================================== Tres Seaver tseaver@zope.com Zope Corporation "Zope Dealers" http://www.zope.com From michael at d2m.at Wed Jul 28 06:38:54 2004 From: michael at d2m.at (Michael Haubenwallner) Date: Wed Jul 28 06:39:13 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Volunteers to help out wirth webmaster mail In-Reply-To: <40F41B68.4050406@zope.com> References: <40F41107.9040408@zope.com> <40F41B68.4050406@zope.com> Message-ID: Jim Fulton wrote: > Michael Bernstein wrote: > >> Jim Fulton wrote: >> >>> >>> If anyone wants to help out with webmaster mail, you should subscribe to >>> zope.org-webmaster@zope.org: >>> >>> http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zopeorg-webmaster >> >> >> >> Uhh... is just *anyone* allowed to subscribe? > > > Only spammers. ;) > > Subscriptions require approval. I'll be very selective. :) > > Jim > Spammers are here already - starting this monday webmaster@zope.org is been hit by spammers/worms quite a lot. Is it possible to change the policy (if possible) to no-html, no-attachment and put a spam filter on it ? Michael From chris at simplistix.co.uk Fri Jul 30 05:40:09 2004 From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers) Date: Fri Jul 30 05:40:14 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Just changed Collector... Message-ID: <410A1779.30805@simplistix.co.uk> ...so it doesn't show WontFix items in the default view. I did this by changing: http://zope.org/portal_skins/custom/collector_contents I notice there's a LOT of stuff in that customer folder. Should it be in an FS skin somewhere that we can version control properly? cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk From giuseppe.masili at redomino.com Fri Jul 30 06:17:27 2004 From: giuseppe.masili at redomino.com (Giuseppe Masili) Date: Fri Jul 30 06:17:22 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope Hosting Message-ID: <1091182647.928.1.camel@nabucodonosor> Hi! I'm the italian zope community mantainer. I'd like to add to your http://www.zope.org/Resources/ZHP/ page an italian zope company site: Redomino http://www.redomino.com or http://www.hostingzope.it or http://www.hostingzope.com Logo: attach thanks -- Giuseppe Masili giuseppe.masili@redomino.com Redomino S.r.l. C.so Monte Grappa 90/b - 10145 Torino - Italy Tel: +39 011 19502871 - Fax: +39 011 19502871 http://www.redomino.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: redomino_logo.jpg Type: application/octet-stream Size: 4879 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-web/attachments/20040730/475b34cc/redomino_logo.obj From chris at simplistix.co.uk Fri Jul 30 06:52:18 2004 From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers) Date: Fri Jul 30 06:52:23 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Closing old issues kills zope.org? Message-ID: <410A2862.3060207@simplistix.co.uk> Hi All, I tried to close Issue 13 in the Zope Collector. When I submitted the "Resolve", I got this weird-assed error from squid: ERROR The requested URL could not be retrieved While trying to retrieve the URL: NONE://10.0.24.21:8080http://appserverpool:8080/VirtualHostBase/http/zope.org:80/zopeorg/VirtualHostRoot/Collectors/Zope/13/collector_issue_followup The following error was encountered: * Zero Sized Reply Squid did not receive any data for this request. Your cache administrator is sa@zope.com. Generated Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:32:47 GMT by cache1.zope.org (squid/2.5.STABLE5) ...and then zope.org was unresponsive for about 5-10 mins. Seems to be okay now, but I see my resolving on issue 13 didn't stick. I just tried again, and this time it worked fine. Any ideas? Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk From chris at simplistix.co.uk Fri Jul 30 07:57:11 2004 From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers) Date: Fri Jul 30 07:57:17 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope.org news? Message-ID: <410A3797.3000508@simplistix.co.uk> I just noticed my bug day announcement never made it to the news section on the front of zope.org, despite me publishing it. Why is that? Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk From michael at d2m.at Fri Jul 30 11:24:55 2004 From: michael at d2m.at (Michael Haubenwallner) Date: Fri Jul 30 11:25:18 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope.org news? In-Reply-To: <410A3797.3000508@simplistix.co.uk> References: <410A3797.3000508@simplistix.co.uk> Message-ID: Chris Withers wrote: > I just noticed my bug day announcement never made it to the news section > on the front of zope.org, despite me publishing it. > > Why is that? > > Chris > Chris, you already read it - remember ? http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-web/2004-July/003086.html Michael From chris at simplistix.co.uk Fri Jul 30 13:19:09 2004 From: chris at simplistix.co.uk (Chris Withers) Date: Fri Jul 30 13:19:24 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope.org news? In-Reply-To: References: <410A3797.3000508@simplistix.co.uk> Message-ID: <410A830D.90604@simplistix.co.uk> Michael Haubenwallner wrote: > > Chris, you already read it - remember ? > http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-web/2004-July/003086.html *sigh* Shows why this needs to be documented more fully... Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk From michael at d2m.at Fri Jul 30 14:19:37 2004 From: michael at d2m.at (Michael Haubenwallner) Date: Fri Jul 30 14:19:58 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope.org news? In-Reply-To: <410A830D.90604@simplistix.co.uk> References: <410A3797.3000508@simplistix.co.uk> <410A830D.90604@simplistix.co.uk> Message-ID: Chris Withers wrote: > Michael Haubenwallner wrote: > >> >> Chris, you already read it - remember ? >> http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-web/2004-July/003086.html > > > *sigh* > > Shows why this needs to be documented more fully... > > Chris > Sorry - cant help you with reading. Setting the "effective date" (in that special case) is a work the publisher has to do (if the user has not thought of it already). Michael From mark at zopemag.com Fri Jul 30 14:38:19 2004 From: mark at zopemag.com (Mark) Date: Fri Jul 30 14:39:39 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope.org news? In-Reply-To: References: <410A3797.3000508@simplistix.co.uk> <410A830D.90604@simplistix.co.uk> Message-ID: Hi Guys, Is this something we could add to the News Items fill-in screen? As in: Note: You must set an effective date or your News Item will not appear! Cheers, Mark On Jul 30, 2004, at 2:19 PM, Michael Haubenwallner wrote: > Chris Withers wrote: > >> Michael Haubenwallner wrote: >>> >>> Chris, you already read it - remember ? >>> http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-web/2004-July/003086.html >> *sigh* >> Shows why this needs to be documented more fully... >> Chris > > Sorry - cant help you with reading. > > Setting the "effective date" (in that special case) is a work the > publisher has to do (if the user has not thought of it already). > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ > Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 875 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-web/attachments/20040730/058fd17a/attachment.bin From michael at d2m.at Fri Jul 30 15:06:47 2004 From: michael at d2m.at (Michael Haubenwallner) Date: Fri Jul 30 15:07:09 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope.org news? In-Reply-To: References: <410A3797.3000508@simplistix.co.uk> <410A830D.90604@simplistix.co.uk> Message-ID: Mark wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Is this something we could add to the News Items fill-in screen? > > As in: > > Note: You must set an effective date or your News Item will not appear! > > Cheers, > > Mark > Hi Mark, that would help, but won't help much after all - publishing is done be a few members with publishing rights. I believe all of them already know about that issue. They have to check atm every time if 'effective date' is set or not. There is also a problem with 'bulk'-publishing (where no date can be set atm). I have proposed a solution some 3 weeks ago: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-web/2004-July/003045.html If no one objects, i will change workflow to automatically set 'effective date' to now, if not set already. Michael > On Jul 30, 2004, at 2:19 PM, Michael Haubenwallner wrote: > >> Chris Withers wrote: >> >>> Michael Haubenwallner wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Chris, you already read it - remember ? >>>> http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-web/2004-July/003086.html >>> >>> *sigh* >>> Shows why this needs to be documented more fully... >>> Chris >> >> >> Sorry - cant help you with reading. >> >> Setting the "effective date" (in that special case) is a work the >> publisher has to do (if the user has not thought of it already). >> >> Michael >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org >> http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web From mark at zopemag.com Fri Jul 30 15:22:44 2004 From: mark at zopemag.com (Mark) Date: Fri Jul 30 15:23:26 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Zope.org news? In-Reply-To: References: <410A3797.3000508@simplistix.co.uk> <410A830D.90604@simplistix.co.uk> Message-ID: Hey Michael, I'm all for making it "idot proof" so absolutely set the date -- but can't we include instructions for those reviewing News Items (these instructions are displayed only if the user has the reviewer role)? I would agree with you that by now the reviewers probably know about the problem but chances are that more reviewers may join (or some may drop out) simple and to the point instructions in the screen reduces the chances for this type of problem to creep in. Cheers, Mark On Jul 30, 2004, at 3:06 PM, Michael Haubenwallner wrote: > Mark wrote: >> Hi Guys, >> Is this something we could add to the News Items fill-in screen? >> As in: >> Note: You must set an effective date or your News Item will not >> appear! >> Cheers, >> Mark > > Hi Mark, > that would help, but won't help much after all - publishing is done be > a few members with publishing rights. I believe all of them already > know about that issue. They have to check atm every time if 'effective > date' is set or not. There is also a problem with 'bulk'-publishing > (where no date can be set atm). > > I have proposed a solution some 3 weeks ago: > http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-web/2004-July/003045.html > > If no one objects, i will change workflow to automatically set > 'effective date' to now, if not set already. > > Michael > > >> On Jul 30, 2004, at 2:19 PM, Michael Haubenwallner wrote: >>> Chris Withers wrote: >>> >>>> Michael Haubenwallner wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Chris, you already read it - remember ? >>>>> http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-web/2004-July/003086.html >>>> >>>> *sigh* >>>> Shows why this needs to be documented more fully... >>>> Chris >>> >>> >>> Sorry - cant help you with reading. >>> >>> Setting the "effective date" (in that special case) is a work the >>> publisher has to do (if the user has not thought of it already). >>> >>> Michael >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org >>> http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web >>> >>> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> -- >> _______________________________________________ >> Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org >> http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web > > _______________________________________________ > Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org > http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web > > From michael at d2m.at Sat Jul 31 04:14:33 2004 From: michael at d2m.at (Michael Haubenwallner) Date: Sat Jul 31 04:15:38 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Closing old issues kills zope.org? In-Reply-To: <410A2862.3060207@simplistix.co.uk> References: <410A2862.3060207@simplistix.co.uk> Message-ID: Chris Withers wrote: > Hi All, > > I tried to close Issue 13 in the Zope Collector. > > When I submitted the "Resolve", I got this weird-assed error from squid: > > ERROR > The requested URL could not be retrieved > > While trying to retrieve the URL: > NONE://10.0.24.21:8080http://appserverpool:8080/VirtualHostBase/http/zope.org:80/zopeorg/VirtualHostRoot/Collectors/Zope/13/collector_issue_followup > > > The following error was encountered: > > * Zero Sized Reply > > Squid did not receive any data for this request. > > Your cache administrator is sa@zope.com. > Generated Fri, 30 Jul 2004 10:32:47 GMT by cache1.zope.org > (squid/2.5.STABLE5) > > ...and then zope.org was unresponsive for about 5-10 mins. > > Seems to be okay now, but I see my resolving on issue 13 didn't stick. > > I just tried again, and this time it worked fine. > > Any ideas? > I had the same experience when 'publishing' some objects this morning. As both publishing and changes in collector do some reindexing, there might be a temporary problem with queuedcatalog or catalog itself. Michael From tseaver at zope.com Sat Jul 31 16:00:42 2004 From: tseaver at zope.com (Tres Seaver) Date: Sat Jul 31 16:02:46 2004 Subject: [ZWeb] Re: Zope-web Digest, Vol 12, Issue 27 In-Reply-To: <20040731195441.2CA132030AB@mail.zope.org> References: <20040731195441.2CA132030AB@mail.zope.org> Message-ID: <410BFA6A.70202@zope.com> d2m wrote: > I have proposed a solution some 3 weeks ago: > http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-web/2004-July/003045.html > > If no one objects, i will change workflow to automatically set > 'effective date' to now, if not set already. +1. I *believe* that the workflow actually did that, at least during some portion of the NZO development cycle. Tres. -- =============================================================== Tres Seaver tseaver@zope.com Zope Corporation "Zope Dealers" http://www.zope.com