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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>To pour fuel on the flames...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>+1 DTML</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>-1 ZPT</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Why...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>1) For 'quick and dirty' demos and rapid
application prototyping DTML does the trick (yes, even including ZClasses),
it is fast, easy, reasonably robust and it works!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>2) For 'heavy lifting' (ie. intense computation,
high loads, etc.) I prefer a 'product' approach.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>3) For client-side
functionality/control </FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>I prefer an AJAX
approach using a combination of javascript/HTML/XHTML/XHTML-MP plus server-side
python scripts/external methods/products.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>ZPT is a bit of a hybrid which increases
overhead and doesn't really bring any new functionality to the table (for my
applications and environment). Yes, for separating (well, mostly
separating) content from display formatting ZPT is one possible solution, but
the divorce of content and presentation is better achieved with an
AJAX type of approach.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think Zope beginners would be better off using
DTML (easier to learn, user's get quicker results and therefore have more
satisfaction with Zope as a development platform), and then 'serious'
development should be done using an AJAX approach with Zope 3 - the way of the
future imho :-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If we had to make a choice for the future I would
prefer Zope 2 + DTML and Zope 3 + AJAX (and consign ZPT to the 'good idea at the
time' bin). Possibly, in the distant future, AJAX utilities/ides will
exist which will make rapid prototyping and 'quick & dirty' demos feasible,
in which case Zope 2 + DTML could fade into happy history.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Just my 1-1/2 cents.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jonathan</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=retheoff@gmail.com href="mailto:retheoff@gmail.com">Greg Fischer</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A title=zope@zope.org
href="mailto:zope@zope.org">zope@zope.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, January 08, 2006 5:06
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower
now!</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Yes, we need hype! And a "hot" looking site, WITH Web 2.0
features. <BR><BR>Many of these frameworks are providing AJAX
capabilities, simple graphics and data/object access without page
reloads. (like I am using with Dojo right now) What does Zope not
provide these features "built-in"? <BR><BR>And yes, about the central
docs. A ton of info is available right on <A
href="http://Zope.org">Zope.org</A>, but I always find more on individual
blogs or other google searches. <A href="http://Zope.org">Zope.org
</A>could use a more intuitive help finder maybe. Actually, how aboot a
Zopedigg? Diggs on just Zope articles and such, with comments?
That would be hot! Better and easier than a wiki, IMHO. The one
thing I would say is, from my perspective, when I have info to share on Zope
work I have done, I like to post on my blog or site, not Zope's. Because I
like to provide a demo or maybe include things *my* way. Having a
ZopeDigg would allow us to post our work in a central repository, and look a
little flashy too. <BR><BR>The video tutorial should be made. Like RoR
and Symfony-project have. It shows beginners how easy something is to
do. And they will download it. I did. <BR><BR>Also, I know
this will get some people flaming probably, but Zope needs more hype for DTML.
I KNOW! 99% of you hate it. But every time I show someone how to
do it, their eyes light up. It's very simple coming from ASP or PHP,
once you see it in action. ZPT is just plain confusing to me. I
hate to say this too, but I am doing much more in PHP these days, partly due
to the fact that there exists a large "dtml sucks" attitude in the
community. And even though it has been said that DTML is not going away,
if there is no hype about it, then it might. And I don't want to keep
using Zope without it. Yes, yes, I know DTML has many disadvantages, but it
also has many advantages. I wish there were more hype about it.
<BR><BR>So, here's a big "wish" of mine too. What if Zope was a
*complete* framework, including a web based IDE? I dont mean the ZMI,
which is hot in itself, but a full featured AJAX-ish IDE, built upon Zope.
Drag and drop widgets and properties even. It would also have full database
access built in. Mysql, Mssql, Oracle, Postgresql, all ready to go, without
needing to purchase and configure a database adapter. This would provide
a web based, development framework like .NET using Visual Studio. Only
this would work on Zope, and therefore would run on Linux OR Windows! It
doesnt have to be so comprehensive like VS, but simple form editor with
properties and XMLHTTPRequest capability would be great. I think we
would have a KILLER APP! <BR><BR>Well, maybe I am dreamin? Just thought
I'd give my 2 cents.<BR><BR>Oh, and is the community growing? Well, I think
the Netcraft surveys say a lot. I know this isnt definitive, but I think
it's great info. Since I started using Zope in 2002, the sites using
Zope have grown from 6000 to 42000. Cool! <BR><BR>42000+ Sites in
2006<BR><A
href="http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0601/">http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0601/</A><BR><BR>6000+
Sites in 2002<BR><A
href="http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0201/">http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0201/
</A><BR><BR><BR><BR>Happy new year everyone!<BR><BR><BR><BR>
<DIV><SPAN class=gmail_quote>On 1/3/06, <B class=gmail_sendername>Jonathan
Cyr</B> <<A href="mailto:cyrj@cyr.info">cyrj@cyr.info</A>> wrote:</SPAN>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid"><FONT
size=-1><FONT face=Verdana>Do we know.... Is the Zope community growing or
shrinking? Is there even a problem? Is Python growing or
shrinking? Is there any connection? <BR><BR><A
onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)"
href="http://Zope.org" target=_blank>Zope.org</A> seems to have been built
as a community center, with accounts/ 3rd party add-ons etc. Is it
working. RubyonRails.com has none of this
functionality.<BR><BR>Perhaps a GetZope.com site, similar to GetFirefox.com
is in order, that provides a very small amount of "get started"
information.<BR><BR>Two Cents,<BR><BR>-Jon<BR></FONT></FONT>
<DIV><SPAN class=e id=q_1089236f44ccb25a_1><BR>Gert Thiel wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=http://midBFD08B64.B19D4%25GertThiel@gmx.net type="cite"><PRE>Dear friends.<BR><BR>A few days ago the Ruby on Rails development team published the 1.0 release.<BR>At that occasion the Zope fans are reminded how far Zope fell far behind in<BR>terms of attention and recognized widespread.
<BR><BR>Python has batteries included. Zope is a power plant. But still everyone<BR>speaks of Django, Turbogears or Ruby on Rails. Even if they talk about the<BR>shortcommings of J2EE.<BR><BR>Some of the best content management systems are build using Zope 2. CPS, ZMS
<BR>and my favourite: Plone. And Typo3 gets even more attention. Why?<BR><BR>Because we failed. We aren't marketing Zope at all. Have a look at <A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://zope.org" target=_blank>
zope.org</A>.<BR>Do you think, that any CEO will stay at that site more than 10 seconds? Have<BR>a look at <A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://rubyonrails.org" target=_blank>rubyonrails.org
</A> and cry. Zope 3.2 will be delivered soon. Have any<BR>look at <A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://zope.org" target=_blank>zope.org</A> where is You got it.<BR><BR>To a certain extent Zope 2 was attracting like a nuclear power plant.
<BR>Whenever I start programming with Zope 2, latest for Plone, I can feel its<BR>power before even diving into it much, but I'm alarmed of its pitfalls at<BR>the very same time. So all my hopes are with Zope 3 which enabled me without
<BR>hurting me yet. Will I get a truly powerful replacement for J2EE?<BR><BR>Here are my ideas to make Zope 3 the most successful framework ever:<BR><BR>Make them love Zope at the very first look:<BR><BR> * Make installing Zope a double-click or one-command-only experience and
<BR> * offer a 30 minutes tutorial of programming an useful application<BR> including an audiovisual show for an appetizer that offers a feeling<BR> of success.<BR><BR>Bribe the managers:<BR><BR> * Include Microsoft SQL-Server and Oracle relational database access.
<BR> * Include powerful XML processing facilities and<BR> * include everything necessary and useful to build or use web services.<BR><BR>Enable the beginners:<BR><BR> * Easy to read and understand but still complete and current
<BR> documentation is a must.<BR> * Avoid cluttering everything about Zope across articles, blogs, chats,<BR> mailing lists and wikis. Keep everything available and searchable at<BR> one central location.
<BR><BR>Remember: The power of Ruby on Rails doesn't come from either Ruby or the<BR>framework but from its community.<BR><BR>And of course make Zope 4 even better.<BR><BR>Regards,<BR><BR> Gert<BR><BR><A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.gertthiel.de/blog/drafts/ivory-tower/" target=_blank>
http://www.gertthiel.de/blog/drafts/ivory-tower/</A>
_______________________________________________<BR>Zope maillist - <A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:Zope@zope.org" target=_blank>Zope@zope.org</A>
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class=sg><PRE cols="72">-- <BR>Jonathan Cyr<BR><A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.cyr.info" target=_blank>http://www.cyr.info</A>
<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="http://www.weddingweblog.com" target=_blank>http://www.weddingweblog.com</A>
<A onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)" href="mailto:cyrj@cyr.info" target=_blank>cyrj@cyr.info</A></PRE></SPAN><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Zope
maillist - <A
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</A>)<BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><BR clear=all><BR>-- <BR>Greg
Fischer<BR>1st Byte Solutions<BR><A
href="http://www.1stbyte.com">http://www.1stbyte.com</A>
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