<span style="font-family: verdana;">>For the record: my original response was not aimed at you personally</span><br style="font-family: verdana;"><span style="font-family: verdana;">>Chris, it was just that your mail triggered the whole thing. I apologize
</span><br style="font-family: verdana;"><span style="font-family: verdana;">>for making you the target (and for feeding some trolls :).</span><br style="font-family: verdana;"><br style="font-family: verdana;"><span style="font-family: verdana;">
You make some very valid, correct points but then also make a very incorrect assumption as well. I don't believe the original poster is a troll and neither am I or anyone else who has agreed that this list needs to have some more class and enlightenment. I've been saying that for quite a while and if that gets me labelled a troll for some reason then it proves the need for an attitude change. I think you're flattering yourselves to be honest, if you believe you have so many 'trolls' posting to your list.
</span><br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 11/14/06, <b class="gmail_sendername">Dario Lopez-Kästen</b> <<a href="mailto:dario@ita.chalmers.se">dario@ita.chalmers.se</a>> wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
For the record: my original response was not aimed at you personally<br>Chris, it was just that your mail triggered the whole thing. I apologize<br>for making you the target (and for feeding some trolls :).<br><br>Chris Withers said the following on 11/13/2006 04:38 PM:
<br>><br>> Well, he's treating us like dirt, Dario. Rather than spending time<br>> helping to document Zope, he's gone off and built a wiki slating it.<br>> Thanks, but no thanks...<br><br>hm... ok, point taken. However: he is not treating us like dirt. Not all
<br>zope-users have the historical baggage where zope gets treated like a<br>second class citizen in the Python community, usually with some gross<br>misconception about what zope does as a basis for that.<br><br>If he publishes a wiki with some misconceptions, so what? Will it have
<br>more impact than all the other sites that don't grok zope and therefore<br>dismisses it? No, probably not.<br><br>But us going on like "you obviously don't get it, do you? In fact, you<br>dont seem to get anything about the web, even. Go away!" is not the way
<br>either: instead of getting an enlightened zope user, we get yet another<br>"zope sucks"-person with a bunch of misconceptions about zope out in the<br>wild.<br><br>I am not defending his misconceptions (if there are any - i haven't
<br>spent much time reading his wiki, really) and I generally agree that<br>spending time thinking about a fork is futile. I somehow can understand<br>his position, though, having rewritten some of our systems based on what
<br>they should do, instead of trying to understand the original spaghetti<br>code (but my code is nowhere near the complexity of Zope, on the other<br>hand).<br><br>Nevertheless, I think we as a community could show some class and style.
<br>Everybody needs to be treated with some degree of respect, and it's not<br>like he's going to write a zope fork, in real life; and so what if he<br>did, if it was better, then we could probably learn something, if it<br>
isn't better, nothing will have changed for us.<br><br>> This certainly isn't the case. People who expect their work to get doen<br>> for them for free will get a hard time. I'd suggest that people who come<br>> with particularly unconstructive approaches to how zope may be improved
<br>> will also come in for a similarly hard time...<br><br>Yes, in general, but in our case, I get the feeling that *anyone* that<br>does not agree with the zope-philosophy, or questions the way zope<br>works, gets a smack in the head. This is just the latest example.
<br><br>I am not trying to tell people how to behave, though, even if it may<br>sound like it - I am just trying to point out some things about our<br>attitude that we should be aware of as a community.<br><br>/dario<br><br>
--<br>-- -------------------------------------------------------------------<br>Dario Lopez-Kästen, IT Systems & Services Chalmers University of Tech.<br>Lyrics applied to programming & application design:<br>"emancipate yourself from mental slavery" - redemption song, b. marley
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