[Grok-dev] Re: Admin UI name change suggestion
Philipp von Weitershausen
philipp at weitershausen.de
Fri Oct 5 06:33:06 EDT 2007
Martijn Faassen wrote:
> Philipp von Weitershausen wrote:
>> Martijn Faassen wrote:
>>> If you turn the Zope 3 root into a grok application, there are some
>>> questions, like:
>>> How do you remove the application again and reinstall it? This is
>>> what I do quite a frequently during development.
>> As I've suggested in another reply, this could easily be handled by a
>>> Where is the user interface to go to the introspector?
>> Append /introspector or something? I don't think it's too hard to come
>> up with an easy-to-remember rule how to reach it.
> So you're proposing we *throw out* the UI entirely in favor of various
> URL appendages we need to remember?
No. I'm proposing that you get to the UI not by saying
http://localhost:8080/ but by saying http://localhost:8080/introspector.
I don't understand where you got the idea I want to throw things out.
All I talked about was a default choice that Grok makes for you.
>> Less work to get started. Less concepts to grasp (object publishing,
>> sites as in ISIte, etc.).
> It depends on what you mean by "getting started", right? It's less work
> to get a single application installed.
Please convince me that this *isn't* what 99% of the people starting
with Grok want and I'll be happy to reconsider my view :).
> It's more work to figure out everything else. Lack of a UI will make
> life harder to get started.
Assuming people want this UI.
> You don't know how to get to the introspector (you need to read this somewhere). You don't know how to
> recreate the application (you need to read this somewhere). You can't
> detect that your application is broken (again, you need to read this
From my experience from working with newbies, they don't detect the
"broken" state anyway. They wonder why their new utility isn't showing
up, or why they get a NotFound. I *always* had to explicitly tell them
that they had to reinstall applications. When I did so, it made sense to
them, but they too had to inform themselves about that fact.
I don't think anybody ever intuitively turned to the admin UI for this.
They were simply refreshing their browser pages, and found that they
> I don't understand how there are less concepts to grasp. People working
> with Grok will need to understand object publishing;
Yes. Eventually. I distinctly remember in the discussions around the
first prototypes of Grok that object publishing was not the first thing
people should have to learn
> do you think this will somehow avoid this?
No, but postpone.
> I also have the strong suspicion that
> eventually people will encounter the ISite concept as well.
Sure. Grok certainly makes that easier.
>>> So far I've heard "people are confused", but it's not clear to me
>>> that this change would make people less confused or if so, it would
>>> actually improve their lives?
>> Well, everybody who said they were confused said that they would've
>> not expected this step. That this application object "would just be
>> there". That seems pretty clear to me about whether it would improve
>> their lives.
> One wouldn't think they would be confused for long as soon as they go to
> localhost:8080, right?
I don't understand this question.
> Anyway, again, having a way to get an application installed by default
> would be useful in various circumstances.
WOuld you agree it made sense that one of those "various circumstances"
was the default setup that grokproject produced?
> It just doesn't seem to be the driving use case to:
> * throw out the admin UI (we should make it optional, of course)
not what I'm proposing
> * make installing multiple applications an "expert" use case only.
perhaps "expert" was the wrong word, but I certainly think it's more of
a second-week-with-grok use case than a first-day-with-grok one ;).
> * generally do a lot of work to figure out all kinds of use cases that
> we already cover today.
I think they could still be easily covered.
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