[Grok-dev] Re: "Zope3 on Rails"

Martijn Faassen faassen at startifact.com
Wed Mar 19 11:26:25 EDT 2008

Hello Peter,

Peter Bengtsson wrote:
> Having read everyones valuable replies I can conclude it by saying:
>  1. A lot of people like to use the expression "zope3 on rails" to
> explain Grok is to other python developers.
>  2. It's not good enough to be made official since it comes with a
> risk of being misrepresented and misunderstood.

Yes, I think it's fine to use this kind of "elevator pitch" in 
conversation, but I don't think we want to make our own system attach 
too much to Rails in people's minds. We're nothing like Rails in many 
ways, we're just trying to make Zope 3 more accessible and easy to use, 
and Rails did popularize the idea of doing it, and various approaches 
(DRY, convention over configuration) to do so.

> As a closing though, I'd Grok to be a shortcut for RUNNING zope3, not
> a shortcut to UNDERSTAND zope3. I mean, I run <insert user friendly
> linux distro name> to avoid having to compile my own kernel, not to
> soften me into learning how to compile my own kernel.
> Even seasoned zope3 developers should benefit from Grok, then even
> Stephan Richter might use Grok.

Yes, Grok has two purposes, which I don't believe are mutually exclusive 
but can be synergistic if we do it right:

* make Zope 3 technologies easier to learn and understand (for beginners)

* make Zope 3 technologies more agile in use (for experienced developers)

Now if I, as an experienced developer, can keep something straight in my 
mind, I'm more likely to be able to use it in a more agile fashion. The 
other way around, if a beginner can write and read code that's more 
succinct and compact and agile, a beginner has a bigger chance of 
understanding it.

The challenge is to do both at the same time. When you want to make it 
easier for beginners, the temptation is to dumb it down. We're not 
trying to dumb down Zope 3, we're trying to give it an easier user 
interface that works for experienced developers as well.

I think it's very important to keep this balance: I as an experienced 
developer am interested in Grok in part to try to grow the community, 
but also very much to scratch my own itch: I use Grok in my own 
projects. Itch-scratching is an important motivator in open source, 
after all.



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