[ZDP] Re: Stuff

[Maik.Röder]

Hi Rik !

Rik Hoekstra schrieb:
> > The software on the Zope.org site is not open, so the only thing we can
> > do is do our own thing on ZDP.
> 
> yes. As if that wouldn't be enough ;-)

Sorry, I don't get the joke, could you please explain.
 
> > > The mailing list is helpful, but it's just too much.
> >
> > I hope that we can integrate the mailing list in the ZDP site, so
> > extracting, citing and giving credit is easier.
> 
> Have you seen the ZMailin stuff by the NIP guys (didn't have time to
> check it out myself). Supposedly this should be helpful

Yes, possibly this will help.
 
> >
> > > And starting using Zope is still too difficult (as has been repeated for a
> > > thousand times). This taken together, ZOpe has no real starting point.
> > > This _will_ put off many people.
> >
> > You can go to one of the ZDP portals for a start. There is a starting
> > point for each type of user. If what you expect to be there isn't
> > existing, you can do something about it, because the ZDP site is
> > completely open.
> 
> I know Maik, most people just won't do it :-( The ZDP still lacks
> momentum

That's why I keep telling people about it everywhere I can.

If people find good information there, they will return. 

> > > It is surprising then that, despite the imprenatability of the
> > > community, there seem to be so many people using Zope anyway!
> >
> > Please go to the ZDP portals and share your knowledge about Zope.
> 
> I do that as much as I can find time for it

Thanks for that !
 
> > > The ZDP _should_ help this, but there site design is still not very
> > > inviting as well (sorry Maik, no offense meant).
> >
> > I have taken each comment made on the design into consideration
> > up to now.
> 
> That's true, but it's still not there.

I know that it still is not there, so more comments are needed.
 
> > > I did some mockups for an improved site. Don't have them here,
> > > I'll finish it tonight and then post something. (But please,
> > > bear with me I'no graphic artist either ;-))
> >
> > There is already some work done on this, so you may want to take
> > this into consideration. Christian Scholz (cs@comlounge.net) has
> > done some graphics for the ZDP:
> >
> > http://comlounge.net/projekte/zdp/
> 
> OK, that _looks_ OK for the most part. The main missing point is that
> you already have to know something about Zope even to start using that
> stuff.

I don't see how knowing something about Zope will help in navigating
an internet site.

> We are talking about _low_ level entry stuff here. 

So, there must be a problem with deciding to be one of the following:

Prospective Zope Users & Developers 
Zope Users 
Zope Developers 
Zope Hackers 
Zope Administrators 
Zope Documentation Portal
Members 
Web Designers 
New Zope Users & Developers 

Is that the case ?

> I don't want to be nasty at all, but I tried to imagine I was someone who came to the
> ZDP site with questions about Zope. I included some of the questions
> below.

Thanks for doing this type of usability studies. It would be great it
someone could do this on people that have never visited the ZDP site.
 
> Imagine you never used Zope before and want to know a bit more. Where do
> you start? WHat will get you running Zope as quickly as possible. Is it
> the FAQ, the ZBook, Snippets, one of the Portals. 

Directly next to the news on the top of the page, it says:

"Community 

Join our effort to provide entry points to
all relevant pieces of information relating
to Zope. Become a ZDP member and
write quick introductions on all topics to
get people started. Non-members can
help by adding links, comments and
drafts."

So, is this not enough for people to decide where to go ?

> How would you know
> they were portals and not dmoz like categories - they look like search
> categories?

I agree that the text on top of the portals is not telling you about that:

"Choose a Subject or Topic in your Portal (Subjects are contained in Portals.
Topics are contained in Subjects.)"

Still, in the Evaluators portal at:

http://zdp.zope.org/portals/evaluators

There is this introductory text:

"If you want to find out more about Zope, and what it
can do for you, this Portal tries to help you to evaluate
whether Zope is a good fit for your needs. 

Before you visit the Zope home page, you may want to
get some pointers to the most interesting stuff. 

For example you can take a Zope Tour on Zope.org. 

Read An Introduction to Zope on Developer Shed by
Brian Lloyd of Digital Creations from August 03, 1999."

So, is that text not explicit enough to let the visitor
know about what to expect ?

> WHat does the news part mean?

You mean ZDP News ? It is the news section of the ZDP.

> You see you can search something - what.

You can search globally on the ZDP site. This is the same
on every internet site, so that's what people expect.

> WHat results should you expect?

All that is contained in the ZDP site.

> How should you know all this?

Users expect what they know from other internet sites, so they have
a good idea about what they can find here.
 
> And this also goes for more advanced Zope users: where do I find the
> stuff that's for me.

Select your portal-

> How would I know whether I'm a developer or a hacker.

There is an introductory text in the portal, which makes it easy to
decide whether you are a developer or hacker.

> Is there stuff in Users that's for me, or only in my own
> category?

Look in the User portal to see for whom it is and what it should
contain.

> How does all this relate to zope.org?

The portals themselves relate to Zope in the predefined searches,
the links, and the references in the content.
 
> I don't claim there are easy answers, but at least these are some
> questions to expect from people.

Thanks for your comments !

Best regards,

Maik