[Zope-dev] Zope 3 Newbie Feedback

[Christopher Lozinski]

 First of all my compliments to all of the people who put in enormous
amounts of work first figuring out how to build Zope 3, and then
building it.  I am most grateful  I hope that these comments help you
better understand your market.

I should say that I have been using Zope 2 since 1999 and watching Zope
3 for the longest time.  I just could not get it.  Python is cool, but
interfaces, adaptors, zcml etc just made my eyes glaze over.  I now
understand why all that was necessary, but it was off putting.  I
finally have an app I need to write, but the complexity quite delayed my
working with Zope 3.  What is needed is a simple model to get people
hooked. 

So how to make Blue Bream easier to use?   I propose making the initial
start up interface a simple content management system, kind of a Plone
light.  We all know there is way too much stuff under the hood of
Plone.  It slows software evolution.  In contrast I know that Zope 3 is
easy to evolve, just getting started is hard.  So everyone starts in
Plone, but never migrates to Zope 3.   So a simple content management
system out of the box would make it very easy to get started in Blue
Bream.  Then users could grow into the system. 

I know Plone just had a new release . I am not sure what all is in it,
but it would be great if Zope 3 on startup looked just like Plone, as
far as possible.  Right out of the box allow users to register
themselves, and add in the stock content types.  Calendar item, news
item, things like that, not the developer centric ZPT and DTML file. 
Also allow the developer stuff, but under a different branch of a
hierarchical menu system.    Maybe only people with a developer or
manager permission see those kinds of items.

There are three parts to a simple content management system.   First,  a
way to generate new content types, and second some dtml or page
templates to display them.  Finally some examples would also be useful.

So the critical thing I need is a way to put up custom content types
using a web interface to build the schema.  Maybe I could even add a few
python scripts.  And click on some options that usually go in an zcml
file.  That would make it super fast to put up a custom content type.  
That would make for a very easy entry for someone like myself into
building a new BlueBream application.

Then I need to add some DTML or page templates to display those content
types.  I can already do that right through the web. 

Finally a few existing content types like calendar item, link, and
article would provide for great examples if anyone wanted to modify or
copy them.  They could be implemented through the web as examples or
base classes to be inherited or modified.

That would be an awesome demo.  A real simple way to get started in Zope
3.  A simple abstraction that would make it accessible to those stupider
developers like myself.   And everyone else out there.  Once hooked,
over time we could dig deeper.

That is all I want.  A simple content management system out of the box,
make it easy to add my own content type.  Sure the serious hackers can
throw all that out, but for the average end user/developer, that would
be a hugely tempting improvement over using Plone.   If I can add a few
dtml pages to display my content, it would all be very easy to get
started.  Later I could export to the file system, and svn.

But that is not what I currently get.   Instead, in my case, we will go
with the system admin manually adding users for a while.  And I have to
learn how to write an interface file, which is way way more difficult
than just using a web form to define one.  The web form, lays out my
choices, and only allows for legal schema definitions.  Much better. 

Okay, so much for my wish list.  Here are some more specific comments.

Thank you for providing the user interface.   Registration is quite
confusing.  First I create something, then I have to register it. 
Hello, if I created it, then just go ahead and register it for me.  Take
a ZPT page.  I am a zope 2 developer.  I know what that is.  Then they
ask me to register it.  Took a while to figure out what that means.   I
still have no idea what all those options for interfaces are.  If you
have to have all those choices there, just label one default for me.  It
can't be that hard.  Maybe register one by default, and provide the
option to change it.  Make the page say clearly that something has been
registered.   And have a clear link to the help page for choosing an
interface to register. Or should I say change to. 

Then I cannot add a python script through the user interface.  What
happened to that stuff?   Are python scripts dead?   I loved them. 

Actually I Preferred the Zope 2 pull down menu of things to add.  Over
time it did get a bit long.  Good to have a hierarchy of things to add.
  Best to have a hierarchy of things to add. 

Hope that helps.   I really just want to give good feedback.  I hope
that I have not offended anyone with my frank feedback.  Overall Zope 3
looks great, and is very fast for development.   But I think we could
make it significantly easier for new users to get started with. 

Chris