[ZWeb] Re: Zope-web digest, Vol 1 #267 - 11 msgs
sanket
sanket" <zopist@rediffmail.com
3 Dec 2001 16:51:12 -0000
hello guys,=0D=0AWell, i can contribute around 8 to 10 hrs per week.=0D=0AI=
can do Project Management/Development.=0D=0AI would like to concentrate on=
Project Management=0D=0Abecause it will be very important and challenging =
to coordinate the activities of all for this project.=0D=0ATo start we need=
to=0D=0A1.Establish a good channel of communication.=0D=0A=0D=0A2.Make a f=
inal list of people who can contribute=0D=0Aaccording to name, hrs, work (t=
hey will do).=0D=0A=0D=0A3.If possible meet on some irc to decide the aims =
and=0D=0Aobjectives.=0D=0A=0D=0Aregards,=0D=0ASanket.=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=0A=0D=
=0A=0D=0A=0D=0AOn Mon, 03 Dec 2001 zope-web-request@zope.org wrote :=0D=0A>=
Send Zope-web mailing list submissions to=0D=0A> zope-web@zope.org=0D=0A>=
=0D=0A> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, =0D=0A> visit=
=0D=0A> http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web=0D=0A> or, via ema=
il, send a message with subject or body =0D=0A> 'help' to=0D=0A> zope-web-=
request@zope.org=0D=0A> =0D=0A> You can reach the person managing the list =
at=0D=0A> zope-web-admin@zope.org=0D=0A> =0D=0A> When replying, please edi=
t your Subject line so it is =0D=0A> more specific=0D=0A> than "Re: Content=
s of Zope-web digest..."=0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> Today's Topics:=0D=0A> =0D=
=0A> 1. Re: getting it done (Paul Everitt)=0D=0A> 2. Package Manageme=
nt (Chris Withers)=0D=0A> 3. Getting it done redux (seb bacon)=0D=0A> =
4. Re: getting it done (Martijn Pieters)=0D=0A> 5. Re: getting it done =
(Alexander Limi)=0D=0A> 6. Re: Getting it done redux (Lennart Regebro)=
=0D=0A> 7. Re: Getting it done redux (Paul Everitt)=0D=0A> 8. Re: Pac=
kage Management (Andrew Kenneth Milton)=0D=0A> 9. Re: getting it done (M=
artijn Pieters)=0D=0A> 10. Re: getting it done (seb bacon)=0D=0A> 11. R=
e: getting it done (Paul Everitt)=0D=0A> =0D=0A> --__--__--=0D=0A> =0D=0A> =
Message: 1=0D=0A> Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 13:01:10 -0500=0D=0A> From: Paul E=
veritt <paul@zope.com>=0D=0A> Organization: Zope Corporation=0D=0A> To: ala=
n runyan <runyaga@runyaga.com>=0D=0A> CC: zope-web@zope.org, Alexander Limi=
=0D=0A> <alexander@limi.net>,=0D=0A> Andrew Kenneth Milton <akm@theinte=
rnet.com.au>=0D=0A> Subject: Re: [ZWeb] getting it done=0D=0A> =0D=0A> alan=
runyan wrote:=0D=0A> =0D=0A> > Hi.=0D=0A> > =0D=0A> > I just need a itemiz=
ed list of things to do. I can =0D=0A> dedicate 10 hours/week.=0D=0A> > Bu=
t I want the other people to understand that we =0D=0A> should all very=0D=
=0A> > comfortable enough with hassling each other. =0D=0A> Prodding peopl=
e is sometimes=0D=0A> > the only way to make things go-go-go.=0D=0A> =0D=0A=
> =0D=0A> As you and I spoke about on Friday, this is an =0D=0A> important =
point to the =0D=0A> dynamic. We need some people to contribute, but we =
=0D=0A> also need some =0D=0A> people to help make things happen. I'm glad=
that =0D=0A> you'll step up as a =0D=0A> Certified Zope Prodder. :^)=0D=0A=
> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> > I would imagine if you put a 'zope.org interface =0D=0A=
> contest' up. we could get=0D=0A> > DESIGNERS starting to send mockups in=
-- very =0D=0A> important first step, IMHO.=0D=0A> > Designers need to be =
a part of this. Plone is not me,=0D=0A> it really is Alex=0D=0A> > Limi a=
ka dracvl, I'm merely the person who makes =0D=0A> things happen. I am rea=
lly=0D=0A> > good about taking all the credit ;)=0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> IMO=
, the first thing we need to do is figure out how =0D=0A> we're going to =
=0D=0A> organize ourselves. Where will be collect, prioritize, =0D=0A> and=
assign =0D=0A> things to be done? How will we communicate with each =0D=
=0A> other? Seb =0D=0A> mentioned some of these items, I believe.=0D=0A> =
=0D=0A> The second thing, I think, is to pick an achievable, =0D=0A> concre=
te first goal =0D=0A> and get it done. That is, get a quick success that =
=0D=0A> works out the =0D=0A> dynamics of the group. Some have suggested i=
mproving =0D=0A> the fishbowl.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> After that, I think mockups a=
re the way to go, as you =0D=0A> indicated. The =0D=0A> intranet skins I'v=
e done with Tres can be worked on and =0D=0A> evaluated from =0D=0A> outsid=
e Zope and the CMF. We should, IMO, tackle the =0D=0A> zope.org problem =
=0D=0A> from a screen/template usability perspective through =0D=0A> mockup=
s.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> > I would be more than happy to donate (i'm sure =
alex =0D=0A> is also for it) Plone.=0D=0A> > I would also like to spend my =
time working on Plone =0D=0A> -- since it directly=0D=0A> > benefits me. A=
lex is the design guru -- I'm the key =0D=0A> punching monkey. I am=0D=0A>=
> trying to get beta-testers now. I only have 1 signed =0D=0A> up. more =
will come.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> I like Plone. I think we need a variatio=
n on Plone =0D=0A> that, from the =0D=0A> perspective of colors etc., is mo=
re similar to the =0D=0A> existing tone of =0D=0A> zope.org. But I also wa=
nt to allow people to choose =0D=0A> Plone (or other skins).=0D=0A> =0D=0A>=
=0D=0A> > * Plone being installed, is no problem. I will help =0D=0A> ma=
intain it.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> This is a Big Contribution. Andy (akm) h=
as indicated =0D=0A> willingness to =0D=0A> participate. I think he could =
contribute particularly =0D=0A> on the "Software =0D=0A> Product" product o=
n new.zope.org, as a way to hook it =0D=0A> into ProductManager.=0D=0A> =0D=
=0A> Here's one of the really big roles that I'm looking =0D=0A> for: some =
people to =0D=0A> chip in on the sysadmin. That is, a small group of =0D=
=0A> people with logins. =0D=0A> It needs to be someone willing to respon=
d pretty =0D=0A> quickly to issues.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> > * I personally=
would like to see a Message Board =0D=0A> system (i proposed AKM's=0D=0A> =
> Squib product) being used, as well as comments =0D=0A> attached to conten=
t in CMF.=0D=0A> > Message Board Sysetms are nice and centralized -- a =0D=
=0A> traditional paradigm=0D=0A> > (gasp! 8) Squib uses RDBMS.=0D=0A> =0D=
=0A> =0D=0A> This is a good idea, and ultimately the logical way =0D=0A> th=
at the community =0D=0A> might want to approach zope.org. But for right no=
w, I =0D=0A> propose we =0D=0A> concentrate on some things that aren't arch=
itectural =0D=0A> overhauls. Let's =0D=0A> save that until we get to know =
each other and the =0D=0A> peculiarities of the =0D=0A> software a bit.=0D=
=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> > * I also think Package Management is another great =
=0D=0A> idea. Again AKM has a=0D=0A> > PackageManager product that is unde=
r development. he =0D=0A> is looking for=0D=0A> > beta-testers.=0D=0A> =0D=
=0A> =0D=0A> Yep, definately agreed.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> > * maybe whate=
ver we setup we can co-ordinate =0D=0A> beta-testers. it seems that=0D=0A>=
> important projects suffer from exposure and proper =0D=0A> beta-testing =
feedback to=0D=0A> > authors. On a whole I think ZOPE community has =0D=0A=
> naming problems (Zopelabs=0D=0A> > should be The Zope Cookbook, Squib sho=
uld be Zope =0D=0A> Forums, ZBabel should be=0D=0A> > anything but the word=
Babel, a terrible marketing =0D=0A> word).=0D=0A> > =0D=0A> > Give me a sh=
ell and a ZOPE I will install Plone. =0D=0A> Where to next hoss?=0D=0A> =
=0D=0A> Hooray, you just volunteered for the hardest job! :^)=0D=0A> =0D=0A=
> I assert that we need to start tracking these things to =0D=0A> do and wh=
o needs =0D=0A> to do them. I propose we use collector.zope.org/Zope =0D=
=0A> with a new keyword =0D=0A> of "zope.org" (and some new Assigned To peo=
ple). (It's =0D=0A> possible that =0D=0A> we'll need to improve the CMFCol=
lector along the way, =0D=0A> but I hope not.) =0D=0A> If someone proposes =
something else, they need to also =0D=0A> volunteer to setup =0D=0A> and ad=
minister such a beastie.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Second, we need to setup our commun=
ications facilities. =0D=0A> We need to know =0D=0A> who is participating,=
there email address, and what =0D=0A> they're working on. =0D=0A> In fac=
t, we need to decide who's the Grand Poobah. =0D=0A> Volunteers? I =0D=0A=
> propose that we use this mailing list for email =0D=0A> discussion, that =
we =0D=0A> setup IRC appointments to haggle, and "some" collector =0D=0A> t=
o track issues.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Next, we need to decide where the code is go=
ing to live =0D=0A> and be shared. =0D=0A> I propose that this should be cv=
s.zope.org, though this =0D=0A> would mean the =0D=0A> volunteers execute c=
ontributor agreements. =0D=0A> Alternatives are suggested =0D=0A> (e.g. SF=
).=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Next, I assert that the "will of the people" has spoken =
=0D=0A> and is asking =0D=0A> for an improved fishbowl. We should make tha=
t one of =0D=0A> the first items on =0D=0A> the agenda.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Perh=
aps in conjunction with "Improved Fishbowl", we =0D=0A> tackle skins. We =
=0D=0A> need to get Plone into a shared area and start =0D=0A> converting t=
he existing =0D=0A> new.zope.org screens -- unless there is a desire to =0D=
=0A> scrap new.zope.org =0D=0A> and start over. (Please, no....:^)=0D=0A> =
=0D=0A> --Paul=0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> --__--__--=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Mes=
sage: 2=0D=0A> Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 18:41:29 +0000=0D=0A> From: Chris Wit=
hers <chrisw@nipltd.com>=0D=0A> Organization: New Information Paradigms=0D=
=0A> To: Paul Everitt <paul@zope.com>=0D=0A> CC: alan runyan <runyaga@runya=
ga.com>, =0D=0A> zope-web@zope.org,=0D=0A> Alexander Limi <alexander@limi=
.net>,=0D=0A> Andrew Kenneth Milton <akm@theinternet.com.au>=0D=0A> Subje=
ct: [ZWeb] Package Management=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Paul Everitt wrote:=0D=0A> > =
=0D=0A> > > * I also think Package Management is another great =0D=0A> idea=
. Again AKM has a=0D=0A> > > PackageManager product that is under developm=
ent. =0D=0A> he is looking for=0D=0A> > > beta-testers.=0D=0A> > =0D=0A> >=
Yep, definately agreed.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Well, if someone wants help with pa=
ckage management, =0D=0A> I'm up for it.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> I had a great set o=
f ideas for an XML-based config, =0D=0A> web-served and command line=0D=0A>=
executed PackageManager but I never had a chance to =0D=0A> implement it. =
Is it worth me=0D=0A> mocking this up?=0D=0A> =0D=0A> In any case, which li=
st should Product Manager =0D=0A> discussions happen on?=0D=0A> =0D=0A> che=
ers,=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Chris=0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> --__--__--=0D=0A> =0D=0A> =
Message: 3=0D=0A> Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 21:18:58 +0000=0D=0A> From: seb bac=
on <seb@jamkit.com>=0D=0A> To: zope-web@zope.org=0D=0A> Cc: paul@zope.com=
=0D=0A> Subject: [ZWeb] Getting it done redux=0D=0A> =0D=0A> I've gone over=
the mails from the last few days, and =0D=0A> I've come up with=0D=0A> the=
following overview (without credits to those who've =0D=0A> contributed,=
=0D=0A> sorry). If anyone objects to me being bossy please =0D=0A> shout m=
e down.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> 1. Organisation=0D=0A> =0D=0A> - people who wil=
l contribute regular time.=0D=0A> - some form of project management.=0D=
=0A> - realistically, we may need to explore ways of =0D=0A> getting pa=
id for=0D=0A> contributions (creative billing of clients, for =0D=0A>=
example).=0D=0A> - community feedback on proposals in single-click =0D=
=0A> surveys.=0D=0A> - involve key ZC people directly.=0D=0A> - Pau=
l needs sysadmins=0D=0A> - Achievable first goal=0D=0A> - need to b=
e willing to hassle and be hassled=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Paul has suggested a dire=
ctory of personnel. I propose =0D=0A> starting one=0D=0A> off in a wiki (s=
orry ;)) and looking at moving it =0D=0A> elsewhere later.=0D=0A> Let's get=
an idea of the skills we have as a group. =0D=0A> Most important=0D=0A> =
are (a) that you only put your name up if you're =0D=0A> willing to contrib=
ute=0D=0A> a minimum amount of time a week, (b) you give a list of =0D=0A> =
the things=0D=0A> you'd like to do. Then we can discuss roles and =0D=0A> =
overlaps and things.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Assuming this is OK, could anyone willi=
ng to commit =0D=0A> time and skills=0D=0A> to the 'kickstart the community=
' project add their =0D=0A> details at:=0D=0A> =0D=0A> http://dev.zope.org=
/Wikis/DevSite/Proposals/PeopleWhoCa-=0D=0A> nContribute=0D=0A> =0D=0A> I k=
now Casey Duncan, Lennart Regebro and Alan Runyan =0D=0A> have all said=0D=
=0A> they could dedicate some time, so far. I've put myself =0D=0A> in.=0D=
=0A> =0D=0A> Paul, could you arrange for anyone with an interest at =0D=0A>=
ZC to do the same?=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Once we've got a group of people togethe=
r, I'd suggest =0D=0A> we sort out a=0D=0A> chat on irc to discuss process,=
priorities, etc. End =0D=0A> of the week,=0D=0A> maybe. =0D=0A> =0D=0A> 2=
. Some Commonly Requested Features / Ideas=0D=0A> =0D=0A> - better docum=
entation=0D=0A> - better howtos=0D=0A> - use zopelabs for recipie=
s=0D=0A> - someone has committed themselves to taking over =0D=0A> the=
=0D=0A> documentation page on zope.org=0D=0A> - there should be=
a corner of zope.org devoted to =0D=0A> research=0D=0A> materials, =
etc=0D=0A> =0D=0A> - product packaging=0D=0A> - email notificatio=
n systems=0D=0A> - unified collector / fishbowl?=0D=0A> - self-clea=
ning workflow=0D=0A> - collaborative editing=0D=0A> - can collect=
pre-proposal stage discussion=0D=0A> - delegation =0D=0A> =0D=0A> =
- sourceforge-like project areas=0D=0A> - in-place comments / discussi=
ons relating to =0D=0A> products=0D=0A> - cvs trees=0D=0A> - coll=
ector for each one?=0D=0A> =0D=0A> - Zope internationalization=0D=0A> =
- I feel this is not strictly to do with =0D=0A> kickstarting the=0D=0A>=
community, but perhaps that's because I'm an =0D=0A> anglophone? I=
s=0D=0A> i18n of zope.org a prerequisite of getting a =0D=0A> critic=
al mass for=0D=0A> the community?=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Well, that's my sum=
mary. Have I missed anything out?=0D=0A> =0D=0A> seb=0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A=
> --__--__--=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Message: 4=0D=0A> Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 17:33:3=
7 -0500=0D=0A> To: Paul Everitt <paul@zope.com>=0D=0A> Cc: zope-web@zope.or=
g=0D=0A> Subject: Re: [ZWeb] getting it done=0D=0A> From: Martijn Pieters <=
mj@zope.com>=0D=0A> =0D=0A> On Sun, Dec 02, 2001 at 01:01:10PM -0500, Paul =
Everitt =0D=0A> wrote:=0D=0A> > I propose we use collector.zope.org/Zope wi=
th a new =0D=0A> keyword =0D=0A> > of "zope.org" (and some new Assigned To =
people). =0D=0A> (It's possible that =0D=0A> > we'll need to improve the C=
MFCollector along the way, =0D=0A> but I hope not.) =0D=0A> > If someone pr=
oposes something else, they need to also =0D=0A> volunteer to setup =0D=0A>=
> and administer such a beastie.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> I think we should not use =
a kewyord on the Zope =0D=0A> collector. Tres and I=0D=0A> already have inv=
entorized and talked about Zope.org =0D=0A> trackers. There already=0D=0A> =
is a new.zope.org Tracker at:=0D=0A> =0D=0A> http://dev.zope.org/Projects=
/nzot=0D=0A> =0D=0A> and there is a tracker for the current Zope.org tracke=
r =0D=0A> at:=0D=0A> =0D=0A> http://www.zope.org/Tracker=0D=0A> =0D=0A> B=
oth these trackers will go away after new.zope.org is =0D=0A> done and move=
d to=0D=0A> www.zope.org. I want them to be replaced with a new =0D=0A> Col=
lector at=0D=0A> collector.zope.org, one especially for the ZOpe.org =0D=0A=
> website.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> For now, I think that the new.zope.org tracker is=
more =0D=0A> than sufficient for=0D=0A> the task at hand. I can always add=
supporters to that =0D=0A> one.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> > Second, we need to setup =
our communications =0D=0A> facilities. We need to know =0D=0A> > who is pa=
rticipating, there email address, and what =0D=0A> they're working on. =0D=
=0A> > In fact, we need to decide who's the Grand Poobah. =0D=0A> Volunte=
ers? I =0D=0A> > propose that we use this mailing list for email =0D=0A> d=
iscussion, that we =0D=0A> > setup IRC appointments to haggle, and "some" =
=0D=0A> collector to track issues.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Agreed. This is exactly w=
hat this mailinglist was set =0D=0A> up for. As for IRC, we=0D=0A> can set =
up a new channel, if #zope is too busy at the =0D=0A> time of a meeting. We=
=0D=0A> don't want to impose on innocent bystanders, of course. =0D=0A> :)=
=0D=0A> =0D=0A> > Next, we need to decide where the code is going to =0D=0A=
> live and be shared. =0D=0A> > I propose that this should be cvs.zope.org,=
though =0D=0A> this would mean the =0D=0A> > volunteers execute contributo=
r agreements. =0D=0A> Alternatives are suggested =0D=0A> > (e.g. SF).=0D=
=0A> =0D=0A> Indeed, we'll have to move the current CVS code out to =0D=0A>=
somewhere more=0D=0A> accessible.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> > Next, I assert that the=
"will of the people" has =0D=0A> spoken and is asking =0D=0A> > for an imp=
roved fishbowl. We should make that one of =0D=0A> the first items on =0D=
=0A> > the agenda.=0D=0A> > =0D=0A> > Perhaps in conjunction with "Improved=
Fishbowl", we =0D=0A> tackle skins. We =0D=0A> > need to get Plone into a=
shared area and start =0D=0A> converting the existing =0D=0A> > new.zope.o=
rg screens -- unless there is a desire to =0D=0A> scrap new.zope.org =0D=0A=
> > and start over. (Please, no....:^)=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Aaargh! Don't let Tre=
s hear that.. Oh, and don't let =0D=0A> Andrew hear that=0D=0A> either, bec=
ause he would agree all too readily to scrap =0D=0A> the code. :)=0D=0A> =
=0D=0A> -- =0D=0A> Martijn Pieters=0D=0A> | Software Engineer mailto:mj@zo=
pe.com=0D=0A> | Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com/=0D=0A> | Creators o=
f Zope http://www.zope.org/=0D=0A> --------------------------------------=
-------=0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> --__--__--=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Message: 5=0D=0A> =
From: "Alexander Limi" <alexander@limi.net>=0D=0A> To: "Paul Everitt" <paul=
@zope.com>,=0D=0A> "alan runyan" <runyaga@runyaga.com>=0D=0A> Cc: <zope-we=
b@zope.org>=0D=0A> Subject: Re: [ZWeb] getting it done=0D=0A> Date: Mon, 3 =
Dec 2001 00:14:09 +0100=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Paul Everitt wrote:=0D=0A> =0D=0A> >=
I like Plone. I think we need a variation on Plone =0D=0A> that, from the=
=0D=0A> > perspective of colors etc., is more similar to the =0D=0A> existi=
ng tone of=0D=0A> > zope.org. But I also want to allow people to choose =
=0D=0A> Plone (or other=0D=0A> skins).=0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> The colors in=
Plone will be selectable (at least that's =0D=0A> the plan :), so I=0D=0A>=
can make a zope.org-looking color scheme as one of the =0D=0A> options if =
you want=0D=0A> it. Just let me know.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Also, Plone will go th=
rough a pretty important change =0D=0A> in this week, I'll let=0D=0A> you k=
now when it's done. You are going to like it ;)=0D=0A> =0D=0A> (Just a quic=
k comment, I'm off to a job interview ;)=0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> -- Alexande=
r (Dracvl on #zope)=0D=0A> =0D=0A> PS: isn't it time someone fixed is so ir=
c.zope.org =0D=0A> actually works? Newbies=0D=0A> to IRC won't look for alt=
ernative servers. Just a =0D=0A> thought :)=0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> =
--__--__--=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Message: 6=0D=0A> From: "Lennart Regebro" <lennar=
t@regebro.nu>=0D=0A> To: <zope-web@zope.org>=0D=0A> Subject: Re: [ZWeb] Get=
ting it done redux=0D=0A> Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 00:22:48 +0100=0D=0A> =0D=
=0A> From: "seb bacon" <seb@jamkit.com>=0D=0A> > If anyone objects to me be=
ing bossy please shout me =0D=0A> down.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> No, I think it's goo=
d. :-)=0D=0A> =0D=0A> > Assuming this is OK, could anyone willing to commit=
=0D=0A> time and skills=0D=0A> > to the 'kickstart the community' project =
add their =0D=0A> details at:=0D=0A> >=0D=0A> > http://dev.zope.org/Wikis/=
DevSite/Proposals/PeopleWho-=0D=0A> CanContribute=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Done!=0D=
=0A> =0D=0A> > Well, that's my summary. Have I missed anything out?=0D=0A>=
=0D=0A> Not much. I'd like to add one thing though, and thats =0D=0A> rega=
rding the Zope=0D=0A> corp/Community interface. How should this be done and=
=0D=0A> managed? Well, I like=0D=0A> Extreme Programming, and I suggest th=
at any group that =0D=0A> does programming is=0D=0A> treated as if ZC is th=
e buyer and the project group the =0D=0A> implementors.=0D=0A> That would m=
ean that one person from ZC needs to be =0D=0A> involved in each project=0D=
=0A> and act as the "on site" customer, and which features =0D=0A> should b=
e implemented=0D=0A> could be decided in a "planning game" type of scenario=
. =0D=0A> This means that Zope=0D=0A> Corp are still in charge, while the p=
rogramming in =0D=0A> theory could be done=0D=0A> without any ZC persons...=
=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Me and a couple of friends have been discussing =0D=0A> dis=
tributed site XP projects=0D=0A> for a while, and it's not easy to do. Surp=
risingly, =0D=0A> pair programing is=0D=0A> pretty easy to do, all you need=
is a screen-sharing =0D=0A> program and a telephone.=0D=0A> :-)=0D=0A> Man=
aging the project will be problematic though. We =0D=0A> would all probably=
learn=0D=0A> a lot from trying this. :-)=0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> =
=0D=0A> --__--__--=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Message: 7=0D=0A> Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 =
19:05:17 -0500=0D=0A> From: Paul Everitt <paul@zope.com>=0D=0A> Organizatio=
n: Zope Corporation=0D=0A> To: seb bacon <seb@jamkit.com>=0D=0A> CC: zope-w=
eb@zope.org=0D=0A> Subject: Re: [ZWeb] Getting it done redux=0D=0A> =0D=0A>=
seb bacon wrote:=0D=0A> =0D=0A> > I've gone over the mails from the last f=
ew days, and =0D=0A> I've come up with=0D=0A> > the following overview (wit=
hout credits to those =0D=0A> who've contributed,=0D=0A> > sorry). If anyo=
ne objects to me being bossy please =0D=0A> shout me down.=0D=0A> > =0D=0A>=
> 1. Organisation=0D=0A> > =0D=0A> > - people who will contribute reg=
ular time.=0D=0A> > - some form of project management.=0D=0A> > - r=
ealistically, we may need to explore ways of =0D=0A> getting paid for=0D=0A=
> > contributions (creative billing of clients, for =0D=0A> example).=
=0D=0A> > - community feedback on proposals in single-click =0D=0A> sur=
veys.=0D=0A> > - involve key ZC people directly.=0D=0A> > - Paul ne=
eds sysadmins=0D=0A> > - Achievable first goal=0D=0A> > - need to b=
e willing to hassle and be hassled=0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> Bing! Sounds goo=
d.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> > Paul has suggested a directory of personnel. I=
=0D=0A> propose starting one=0D=0A> > off in a wiki (sorry ;)) and looking=
at moving it =0D=0A> elsewhere later.=0D=0A> > Let's get an idea of the sk=
ills we have as a group. =0D=0A> Most important=0D=0A> > are (a) that you=
only put your name up if you're =0D=0A> willing to contribute=0D=0A> > a m=
inimum amount of time a week, (b) you give a list =0D=0A> of the things=0D=
=0A> > you'd like to do. Then we can discuss roles and =0D=0A> overlaps an=
d things.=0D=0A> > =0D=0A> > Assuming this is OK, could anyone willing to c=
ommit =0D=0A> time and skills=0D=0A> > to the 'kickstart the community' pro=
ject add their =0D=0A> details at:=0D=0A> > =0D=0A> > http://dev.zope.org/=
Wikis/DevSite/Proposals/PeopleWho-=0D=0A> CanContribute=0D=0A> > =0D=0A> > =
I know Casey Duncan, Lennart Regebro and Alan Runyan =0D=0A> have all said=
=0D=0A> > they could dedicate some time, so far. I've put =0D=0A> myself i=
n.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> I'm in.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> > Paul, could you =
arrange for anyone with an interest =0D=0A> at ZC to do the same?=0D=0A> =
=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Matt Burleigh, our sysadmin for all seasons, emailed me =0D=
=0A> expressing =0D=0A> interest. He's critical -- he has the keys to the =
=0D=0A> kingdom, so to speak, =0D=0A> and has an interest in participating =
on this team. =0D=0A> He'll need some =0D=0A> people to chip in on sysadmi=
n, though -- or rather, =0D=0A> zopeadmin (burping =0D=0A> the baby things =
when it has gas).=0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> > Once we've got a group of people=
together, I'd =0D=0A> suggest we sort out a=0D=0A> > chat on irc to discus=
s process, priorities, etc. End =0D=0A> of the week,=0D=0A> > maybe. =0D=
=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> Oh come on, I was thinking tomorrow morning! :^)=0D=0A=
> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> > 2. Some Commonly Requested Features / Ideas=0D=0A> > =
=0D=0A> > - better documentation=0D=0A> > - better howtos=0D=0A> > =
- use zopelabs for recipies=0D=0A> > - someone has committed them=
selves to taking =0D=0A> over the=0D=0A> > documentation page on zop=
e.org=0D=0A> > - there should be a corner of zope.org devoted =0D=0A> =
to research=0D=0A> > materials, etc=0D=0A> > =0D=0A> > - prod=
uct packaging=0D=0A> > - email notification systems=0D=0A> > - unifie=
d collector / fishbowl?=0D=0A> > - self-cleaning workflow=0D=0A> > =
- collaborative editing=0D=0A> > - can collect pre-proposal stage di=
scussion=0D=0A> > - delegation =0D=0A> > =0D=0A> > - sourceforge-li=
ke project areas=0D=0A> > - in-place comments / discussions relating t=
o =0D=0A> products=0D=0A> > - cvs trees=0D=0A> > - collector for =
each one?=0D=0A> > =0D=0A> > - Zope internationalization=0D=0A> > -=
I feel this is not strictly to do with =0D=0A> kickstarting the=0D=0A> > =
community, but perhaps that's because I'm an =0D=0A> anglophone? Is=
=0D=0A> > i18n of zope.org a prerequisite of getting a =0D=0A> criti=
cal mass for=0D=0A> > the community?=0D=0A> > =0D=0A> > Well, that's=
my summary. Have I missed anything out?=0D=0A> =0D=0A> I like the list. =
However, I _implore_ us to pick an =0D=0A> easy, quick =0D=0A> success. We=
need to get into the mode of working =0D=0A> together and we need =0D=0A> =
to convince others that we're going to do something =0D=0A> most volunteers=
=0D=0A> don't -- that is, produce something. :^)=0D=0A> =0D=0A> --Paul=0D=
=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> --__--__--=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Message: 8=0D=0A> Da=
te: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 10:44:27 +1000=0D=0A> From: Andrew Kenneth Milton <akm@=
theinternet.com.au>=0D=0A> To: Chris Withers <chrisw@nipltd.com>=0D=0A> Cc:=
Paul Everitt <paul@zope.com>, alan runyan =0D=0A> <runyaga@runyaga.com>,=
=0D=0A> zope-web@zope.org, Alexander Limi =0D=0A> <alexander@limi.net>,=
=0D=0A> Andrew Kenneth Milton <akm@theinternet.com.au>=0D=0A> Subject: [=
ZWeb] Re: Package Management=0D=0A> =0D=0A> +-------[ Chris Withers ]------=
----------------=0D=0A> | Paul Everitt wrote:=0D=0A> | > =0D=0A> | > > * I =
also think Package Management is another =0D=0A> great idea. Again AKM has=
a=0D=0A> | > > PackageManager product that is under development. =0D=0A> =
he is looking for=0D=0A> | > > beta-testers.=0D=0A> | > =0D=0A> | > Yep, de=
finately agreed.=0D=0A> | =0D=0A> | Well, if someone wants help with packag=
e management, =0D=0A> I'm up for it.=0D=0A> | =0D=0A> | I had a great set o=
f ideas for an XML-based config, =0D=0A> web-served and command line=0D=0A>=
| executed PackageManager but I never had a chance to =0D=0A> implement it=
. Is it worth me=0D=0A> | mocking this up?=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Perhaps you shoul=
d look at the code I've released so =0D=0A> far. It does actually work=0D=
=0A> (mostly). In the current release it deals with Python =0D=0A> Products=
only. I will=0D=0A> be adding functionality as we go along to deal with =
=0D=0A> other packaged Zope items.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> | =0D=0A> | In any case, =
which list should Product Manager =0D=0A> discussions happen on?=0D=0A> =0D=
=0A> The one zopezen setup at sourceforge (the one you're =0D=0A> already a=
member of? d8)=0D=0A> =0D=0A> -- =0D=0A> Totally Holistic Enterprises Inte=
rnet| =0D=0A> | Andrew Milton=0D=0A> The Internet (Aus=
t) Pty Ltd | =0D=0A> |=0D=0A> ACN: 082 081 47=
2 ABN: 83 082 081 472 | M:+61 416 022 =0D=0A> 411 | Carpe Daemon=0D=0A> =
PO Box 837 Indooroopilly QLD 4068 =0D=0A> |akm@theinternet.com.au| =0D=
=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> --__--__--=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Message: 9=0D=0A> Date: Sun,=
2 Dec 2001 21:08:19 -0500=0D=0A> To: Alexander Limi <alexander@limi.net>=
=0D=0A> Cc: Paul Everitt <paul@zope.com>, alan runyan =0D=0A> <runyaga@runy=
aga.com>,=0D=0A> zope-web@zope.org=0D=0A> Subject: Re: [ZWeb] getting it=
done=0D=0A> From: Martijn Pieters <mj@zope.com>=0D=0A> =0D=0A> On Mon, Dec=
03, 2001 at 12:14:09AM +0100, Alexander =0D=0A> Limi wrote:=0D=0A> > PS: i=
sn't it time someone fixed is so irc.zope.org =0D=0A> actually works? Newbi=
es=0D=0A> > to IRC won't look for alternative servers. Just a =0D=0A> thoug=
ht :)=0D=0A> =0D=0A> You are quite right ALexander; I have asked Matt, our =
=0D=0A> sysop, to add a=0D=0A> irc.zope.org entry.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Currently=
there is only irc.zope.net, which is a =0D=0A> remnant of Ethan Freeman's=
=0D=0A> vision of a division between zope.org, zope.com and =0D=0A> zope.ne=
t for three=0D=0A> different audiences. This vision is no longer relvant, =
=0D=0A> especially since the=0D=0A> namechange from Digicool to Zope Corp.=
=0D=0A> =0D=0A> -- =0D=0A> Martijn Pieters=0D=0A> | Software Engineer mail=
to:mj@zope.com=0D=0A> | Zope Corporation http://www.zope.com/=0D=0A> | Cr=
eators of Zope http://www.zope.org/=0D=0A> ------------------------------=
---------------=0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> --__--__--=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Message: 1=
0=0D=0A> Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 12:10:17 +0000=0D=0A> From: seb bacon <seb@j=
amkit.com>=0D=0A> To: Martijn Pieters <mj@zope.com>=0D=0A> Cc: Paul Everitt=
<paul@zope.com>, zope-web@zope.org=0D=0A> Subject: Re: [ZWeb] getting it d=
one=0D=0A> =0D=0A> * Martijn Pieters <mj@zope.com> [011202 22:39]:=0D=0A> >=
> Next, I assert that the "will of the people" has =0D=0A> spoken and is a=
sking =0D=0A> > > for an improved fishbowl. We should make that one =0D=0A=
> of the first items on =0D=0A> > > the agenda.=0D=0A> > > =0D=0A> > > Perh=
aps in conjunction with "Improved Fishbowl", we =0D=0A> tackle skins. We =
=0D=0A> > > need to get Plone into a shared area and start =0D=0A> converti=
ng the existing =0D=0A> > > new.zope.org screens -- unless there is a desir=
e to =0D=0A> scrap new.zope.org =0D=0A> > > and start over. (Please, no....=
:^)=0D=0A> > =0D=0A> > Aaargh! Don't let Tres hear that.. Oh, and don't let=
=0D=0A> Andrew hear that=0D=0A> > either, because he would agree all too r=
eadily to =0D=0A> scrap the code. :)=0D=0A> =0D=0A> It sounds like there ma=
y be some issues on developing =0D=0A> zope.org=0D=0A> surrounding the work=
you lot at ZC have already done. =0D=0A> It would be a=0D=0A> shame to du=
plicate too much effort.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> What have you already done? Do you=
have any definition =0D=0A> of=0D=0A> requirements or other documentation?=
What was your =0D=0A> brief? Who's on=0D=0A> the team?=0D=0A> =0D=0A> I'=
m inclined to feel that the site and new developments =0D=0A> are suffering=
=0D=0A> from a lack of definition at the moment. The site =0D=0A> needs mo=
re than a=0D=0A> new skin; it possibly needs an entirely new paradigm =0D=
=0A> (away from=0D=0A> CMFDefault-style). I'd love to start working on a n=
ew =0D=0A> vision for the=0D=0A> site soon. But perhaps you already have o=
ne we can =0D=0A> start with?=0D=0A> =0D=0A> There was a number of negative=
(but mostly constructive)=0D=0A> comments=0D=0A> re. usability of the new=
.zope.org skin when you first =0D=0A> announced it. I=0D=0A> do feel that =
it needs a lot of work at the very least.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> seb=0D=0A> =0D=0A>=
=0D=0A> --__--__--=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Message: 11=0D=0A> Date: Mon, 03 Dec 200=
1 07:02:51 -0500=0D=0A> From: Paul Everitt <paul@zope.com>=0D=0A> Organizat=
ion: Zope Corporation=0D=0A> To: Martijn Pieters <mj@zope.com>=0D=0A> CC: z=
ope-web@zope.org=0D=0A> Subject: Re: [ZWeb] getting it done=0D=0A> =0D=0A> =
=0D=0A> (Sigh, I typed a message on this last night, but =0D=0A> Mozilla lo=
cked up when =0D=0A> I clicked Options->Rewrap.)=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Martijn Pie=
ters wrote:=0D=0A> =0D=0A> > On Sun, Dec 02, 2001 at 01:01:10PM -0500, Paul=
=0D=0A> Everitt wrote:=0D=0A> > =0D=0A> >>I propose we use collector.zope.=
org/Zope with a new =0D=0A> keyword =0D=0A> >>of "zope.org" (and some new A=
ssigned To people). =0D=0A> (It's possible that =0D=0A> >>we'll need to im=
prove the CMFCollector along the way, =0D=0A> but I hope not.) =0D=0A> >>If=
someone proposes something else, they need to also =0D=0A> volunteer to se=
tup =0D=0A> >>and administer such a beastie.=0D=0A> >>=0D=0A> > =0D=0A> > I=
think we should not use a kewyord on the Zope =0D=0A> collector. Tres and =
I=0D=0A> > already have inventorized and talked about Zope.org =0D=0A> trac=
kers. There already=0D=0A> > is a new.zope.org Tracker at:=0D=0A> > =0D=0A>=
> http://dev.zope.org/Projects/nzot=0D=0A> > =0D=0A> > and there is a tr=
acker for the current Zope.org =0D=0A> tracker at:=0D=0A> > =0D=0A> > htt=
p://www.zope.org/Tracker=0D=0A> > =0D=0A> > Both these trackers will go awa=
y after new.zope.org =0D=0A> is done and moved to=0D=0A> > www.zope.org. I =
want them to be replaced with a new =0D=0A> Collector at=0D=0A> > collector=
.zope.org, one especially for the ZOpe.org =0D=0A> website.=0D=0A> > =0D=0A=
> > For now, I think that the new.zope.org tracker is =0D=0A> more than suf=
ficient for=0D=0A> > the task at hand. I can always add supporters to that =
=0D=0A> one.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> Sorry, I had forgotten about that one. =
Thanks for =0D=0A> reminding us. I'll =0D=0A> let Seb and Alan take first=
crack at making decisions =0D=0A> on things like =0D=0A> this. Guys, are =
we using this tracker or setting up =0D=0A> something different =0D=0A> som=
ewhere else?=0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> > =0D=0A> >>Second, we need to setup o=
ur communications =0D=0A> facilities. We need to know =0D=0A> >>who is par=
ticipating, there email address, and what =0D=0A> they're working on. =0D=
=0A> >> In fact, we need to decide who's the Grand Poobah. =0D=0A> Volunte=
ers? I =0D=0A> >>propose that we use this mailing list for email =0D=0A> d=
iscussion, that we =0D=0A> >>setup IRC appointments to haggle, and "some" =
=0D=0A> collector to track issues.=0D=0A> >>=0D=0A> > =0D=0A> > Agreed. Thi=
s is exactly what this mailinglist was set =0D=0A> up for. As for IRC, we=
=0D=0A> > can set up a new channel, if #zope is too busy at the =0D=0A> tim=
e of a meeting. We=0D=0A> > don't want to impose on innocent bystanders, of=
=0D=0A> course. :)=0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> As Martijn noted, Matt Burleigh =
is setting up =0D=0A> irc.zope.org. Seb was going to =0D=0A> =0D=0A> sched=
ule the first IRC appointment, so I'll let him =0D=0A> make the call. =0D=
=0A> =0D=0A> >>Next, we need to decide where the code is going to =0D=0A> =
live and be shared. =0D=0A> >>I propose that this should be cvs.zope.org, t=
hough =0D=0A> this would mean the =0D=0A> >>volunteers execute contributor =
agreements. =0D=0A> Alternatives are suggested =0D=0A> >>(e.g. SF).=0D=0A>=
>>=0D=0A> > =0D=0A> > Indeed, we'll have to move the current CVS code out =
=0D=0A> to somewhere more=0D=0A> > accessible.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> Alan =
and Seb, this is a tricky issue. It's also an =0D=0A> issue where we're be=
st =0D=0A> =0D=0A> of taking the path of least work.=0D=0A> =0D=0A> >>Next=
, I assert that the "will of the people" has =0D=0A> spoken and is asking =
=0D=0A> >>for an improved fishbowl. We should make that one of =0D=0A> the=
first items on =0D=0A> >>the agenda.=0D=0A> >>=0D=0A> >>Perhaps in conjunc=
tion with "Improved Fishbowl", we =0D=0A> tackle skins. We =0D=0A> >>need =
to get Plone into a shared area and start =0D=0A> converting the existing =
=0D=0A> >>new.zope.org screens -- unless there is a desire to =0D=0A> scrap=
new.zope.org =0D=0A> >>and start over. (Please, no....:^)=0D=0A> >>=0D=0A>=
> =0D=0A> > Aaargh! Don't let Tres hear that.. Oh, and don't let =0D=0A> A=
ndrew hear that=0D=0A> > either, because he would agree all too readily to =
=0D=0A> scrap the code. :)=0D=0A> =0D=0A> Yep. :^) Of course, if the use c=
ases nor any other =0D=0A> artifacts are in=0D=0A> decent shape, it will be=
pretty hard to get started. =0D=0A> Of course, Martijn=0D=0A> has everyth=
ing in his head. Martijn, are you pitching =0D=0A> in on this=0D=0A> (hope=
fully this is a simple question)?=0D=0A> =0D=0A> --Paul=0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=
=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> --__--__--=0D=0A> =0D=0A> ____________________________=
___________________=0D=0A> Zope-web maillist - Zope-web@zope.org=0D=0A> h=
ttp://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-web=0D=0A> =0D=0A> =0D=0A> End o=
f Zope-web Digest=0D=0A =0A