[ZWeb] NZO / Plone / etc

Alexander Limi limi@plone.org
Thu, 20 Feb 2003 20:52:20 +0100

On Thu, 20 Feb 2003 13:59:47 -0500, george donnelly <list@zettai.net> 

> [Alexander Limi wrote (limi@plone.org) on 2/20/03 1:23 PM]
>> 1) Parsing a javascript file does not "slow things down" any more than
>> parsing a CSS file. If you do stupid stuff, like looping - sure. But 
>> then
>> it's the developer's fault, not Javascript.
> your first statement indicates that you agree JS slow things down, 
> doesn't
> it?

Yes. I'm trying to clarify the fact that using Javascript in itself doesn't 
kill your browser. It's how you use it. It has a small overhead, like 
anything you do with web technology.

> My fav browser (IE5.x Mac, admittedly not a propular browser) 
> consistently
> hangs on plone javascripts. This is the (admittedly non-scientific) basis
> for my repeated statements about Plone's javascript slowing things down.

If Javascript consistently hangs your browser, I would either turn it off 
or attempt a reinstall. Several of my customers are using IE 5.2 on the Mac 
as their primary browser, and they have reported no problems with hanging 
of the browser, so I am tempted to believe this is a problem specific to 
your setup.

If it consistently hangs, report where and how to the Plone Collector, and 
I'll look into it. We still haven't got any reports about this happening in 
Mac IE yet, and there's been a lot of CSS related bug reports for Mac IE, 
so I know the users are out there.

> If you have to parse the html and the css and you have to use (slower) 
> Page
> Templates, then why add the js on there as well, when its not strictly
> necessary? Speed is an important consideration.

Let's avoid starting the "Page Templates are slower than DTML" debate here 
again. Please. This is a server-side issue, and we're not talking about 
zope.org running on a Pentium 75 in somebody's basement here.

If speed is a consideration client-side, you turn off stuff like Javascript 
and Flash. Should we drop using CSS too, just because "Speed is an 
important consideration"?

Plone CSS and JS was developed on a modestly-specced 400MHz Celeron laptop 
with 128MB RAM, and I never saw any noticable slowdowns in page rendering 
when having Javascript turned on.

> Let's take a look at it from a different POV: is there any situation on
> Zope.org where we really *need* to use Javascript? Shouldn't this be the
> defining question?

Depends on whether you want to make things easier and more convenient to 
use. I still have the experience that people who are actively opposed to 
javascript turn it off.

But it was not my intention to turn this into a religious debate about what 
should be used on NZO or not. I'm fine with not using JS there, really. NZO 
will not be a usability showcase anyway. I just felt the need to comment on 
some of your overly generalized statements about Javascript that you 
usually quote when this issue comes up on the mailing lists.

We can continue this discussion off-list if you want, and I'll be happy to 
try to solve your issues with IE on the Mac if I can. I just find it 
strange that nobody has reported anything similar.

Alexander Limi