[ZWeb] Front Page & Other Changes

Mark mark at zopemag.com
Tue Aug 24 06:12:58 EDT 2004

Hi Chris,

On Aug 24, 2004, at 11:42 AM, Chris Withers wrote:

>> Find a bowl or a bucket because its impossible to discuss 
>> reorganizing the site without looking at structure.
> Why are we re-organizing?! How many more re-organisations does 
> Zope.org need? This was all done with NZO, and I remember other 
> efforts before that.

You seem to be caught up in semantics. I don't care what we call it. 
But the moment you start making changes
you are re-organizing things -- no?

>> Alternatively you can pull out a Thesaurus and I'll agree to use a 
>> different word :-)
> How about just hard graft editing of the two main books already there 
> and that are already structured, along with a simplification rather 
> than re-complification of the documentation structure!

We won't try to "re-complify" structure. Looking at my graffles -- 
there is more work to do than working on two books.

>>> Then I'd encourage you to make that change! I certainly have no 
>>> problems with it. In fact, something else I wanted to ask is how 
>>> long those ads should stay there, and who decides what ads are 
>>> appropriate.
>> That is exactly the point Chris. I don't think you or I should 
>> unilaterally make this change.
> Why not? We are all sensible and responsible adults. I don't think any 
> of us would do anything unreasonable, and if people felt that we had, 
> I'm sure none of us would have a problem undoing the changes and 
> having further discussion...

Because that to me is now how a "community" site should work for one 
and because it seems really unprofessional.
I don't like quick and dirty.

>> Zope.com pays for Zope.org hosting and seems to consider these Ads as 
>> a type of payback for their efforts.
> It's interesting to note that the only comment from anyone at Zope.com 
> on the changes I've made has been a positive one ;-)

One has nothing to do with the other. But don't get me wrong Chris -- I 
would love to compliment you more
if I didn't disagree with your methods / simplifications. If we are 
ever in the same city again I'll buy you a beer ot two or three.

>> News Items are for News.
> I think news items are fine for advertising events.
>> We are missing an Event Type which includes at least two more fields 
>> (than a news item
>> has):
>> - Type ( of Event)
>> - Country
>> (Start and End dates should be enforced)
>> Something Like
>> Event
>> --- ZUG Meeting
>> --- Conference
>> --- Training Session
>> Nice side effects would include that we could for example include a 
>> "What Zope Events are  happening in France" page.
> ...which might have one or two entries in it a year. I've seen enough 
> sites like this to know that even when they're perfectly implemented, 
> they're sparesely populated and of little use to anyone.

I think you are on shaky ground with that opinion -- take for example:

http://plone.org (the events box)

Having recently lived in D.C. I know that the DC ZUG meets up to two 
times a month. The German Zope User Group
is organizing a conference, their are always several local groups 
meeting, etc. their are a ton of events going on and we should help 
people find out about them. I'm more concerned about too many events.

>> We could then include a box similar to the one on the main page for 
>> News Items which could show a mix of the next
>> 5 upcoming events (regardless of their type). Clicking on the Events 
>> title would bring up a similar page as this one for
>> news:
>> http://zope.org/News/
>> except for people could filter on Type of Event and Country.
> In all honesty, I don't think this is worth doing and will hardly ever 
> get used. But, if you want to write the code, go for it...

I'll need to find a volunteer for this. Because structure stuff is 
keeping me plenty busy.

>> One last thing this if nobody objects / silence --  then we do it 
>> thing doesn't work for me.
>> All of us are pretty busy people we might miss that email (in some 
>> cases because we never actually get them) or IRC discussion. I 
>> propose somebody come up with a simple yes/no voting system for the 
>> major changes to a site (there definitely should be a minimum amount 
>> of votes required) and then call for a vote in IRC and the 
>> mailinglist(s). It would be especially nice when we do things like 
>> come up with mockups to people able to ask for multiple yes no votes 
>> for alternate designs or individual changes.
> This doesn't work, it's been tried in many ways several times in the 
> history of Zope as I've known it. Look at the Fishbowl, the Zope.org 
> collector, the various Zope Docs projects, etc.
> The fact is people are busy, and have limtied time to work on stuff. 
> As already mentioned, we're all responsible and can make our own 
> judgements on what needs discussion and what doesn't. Formalising 
> this, while cute, just adds more red tape and results in even less 
> getting done.
> It even enourages the few people who ARE prepared to do "real work" to 
> go off and do something more fun instead...

Don't agree with your conclusion. But the previous attempts might now 
have worked. Give me a weekend and I will
try to graffle something simple.



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