[ZWeb] Re: Grrr. zope.org wikis are evil.

Jim Fulton jim at zope.com
Mon Oct 9 15:51:16 EDT 2006

Justizin wrote:
> On 10/9/06, Jim Fulton <jim at zope.com> wrote:
>> Sidnei da Silva wrote:
>> > On Mon, Oct 09, 2006 at 02:00:24PM -0400, Jim Fulton wrote:
>> > | I don't have any mystic power that allows me to understand any Zope
>> > | application.  I am also not a CMF developer.
>> >
>> > That's something I never understood.
>> >
>> > It's not only a problem with Jim, but people that can understand the
>> > most obscure issues about memory management or deep C-level hackery,
>> > or insane operating system level APIs or and Linux kernel issues,
>> > sometimes with 5-10 years of Python experience, just state that they
>> > don't have enough knowledge to debug a random application.
>> >
>> > C'mon. There's not any magic going on there. The hardest issues you
>> > will face are Acquisition and Page Templates. Sometimes you have to
>> > just do it. Several times I've found myself in this situation. There's
>> > nothing that can't be understood by stepping through pdb all the way
>> > from BaseRequest to the guts of an application.
>> >
>> > I know it's tedious, and that it might take several tries until you
>> > realize what's exactly going on. But it is doable. There's a
>> > difference between 'I can't do it' and 'I don't want to do it'. Being
>> > in the latter group is fine, but I would say it's highly questionable
>> > for an experienced developer to put himself in the first group without
>> > a reasonable excuse.
>> It's not a question of debugging some isolated problem.  It's
>> a question of making a change to a large system that has been fraught
>> with problems.  A system that most people who work on zope.org
>> don't want to touch.  A system that was abandoned by it's original
>> author.
>> Having said that, I said that I would be willing to work with someone
>> familiar with the zope.org software yo update ZWiki.  No one has stepped
>> forward yet. I wonder why.
> Is there a reason you can't just see what happens when you bring up a
> copy of zope.org with the latest ZWiki? 

Do you have any idea how to bring up a copy of zope.org?  Do you know what
I would need to copy?  If it didn't work, would it be because I did
something wrong in the copy?  This is probably a large amount of work.

> Is there a list of issues? 

With what?

 > I
> face this problem somewhat as well, though I can be blamed for most of
> siggraph.org, some of it is legacy and it has taken me up to a year to
> get some products out of the mix which were around before I started.

Sorry, I don't have a year to spend on zope.org.

> Usually when new versions of upstream code come out, I bring them up
> in dev.siggraph.org, poke at anything flaky I can think of, and ask
> people to try it out for a month or so.  Any time something is broken
> until we get this working, it's a sad state of affairs IMO, but it's
> better than being dead in the water.

With enough effort we could create some kind of staging environment
for zope.org. I know that I couldn't commit the time necessary.


Jim Fulton           mailto:jim at zope.com       Python Powered!
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