[Zope] comment on posting behavior

[Jeff Hoffman]

On Sat, 26 Feb 2000, Guy N. Hurst wrote:

> J C Lawrence wrote:
> > ...
> > 
> > I would much rather have "likely to be correct" answers posted to
> > the list than no answers posted at all.  If some level of confusion
> > is the result of that, so be it.  I'm sure the confused (of which
> > I'm often one) can learn to ignore the "I haven't tested this" posts
> > if they really need to.
> 
> This is only to underscore the fact that Zope is not ready for prime
> time.

I suppose that depends on one's definition of "prime time".

> Something like Perl or PHP would have definitive, known answers for most
> all issues.

Perl and PHP have been around longer than Zope has (at least, in its Open
Source form.)

> Resident experts are scattered everywhere. It is like taking your
> broken-down vehicle to a certified mechanic, and getting it fixed.

People have had the time to become experts at Perl and PHP. Relatively few
have had the time to become such with Zope. They ARE out there, though. I
don't want to resort to naming names (because they would just be the
people _I_ consider to be experts), but trust me, they exist. I have
dealth with a few of them. (And, no, they are not DC employees.)

> MY OPINION
> The problem with Zope is, hardly anyone seems to know what is really 
> going on under the hood (but hey, you're not supposed to need to know), 

Who in the world ever told you you're not supposed to need to know? I
don't know about you, but to me, this is simply a part of educating
yourself. It's expected on ANY platform to do a good job.

You don't need to know what's going on inside the Perl interpreter to
write Perl. However, I would argue that those who do can write better
perl, simply because they understand how the interpreter is going to
handle the code they write. This is Computer _Science_, after all.

[snip]

> I think only a hobbyist can maintain the excitement of enduring all the
> pitfalls, traps, and rewarding features that can be discovered. It is 
> really like an adventure -- if you have the time and desire.

I am not a hobbyist. I am singly responsibly for switching my entire
organization of fourteen people over to Zope. I educated myself about
Zope, by reading the documentation, this list, and studying the source.
I am no expert, but I have not run into any walls in Zope, yet. It usually
takes me about ten minutes of reading the source to figure out what I'm
doing wrong.

We also bought a support contract with DC. When I can't figure out
something for myself, Jim has always given me correct, and timely, answer
to all my questions.

> But I am not a hobbyist, and to tell you the truth, I am just plain 
> fed up. I am being sold a pan and a shovel while hearing claims of gold.

Again, who is selling you anything. You are being given the privelage to
work, at no cost to you, with a pretty powerful code base written by DC's
staff.

I think DC and the Zope community are working hard to make Zope easier to
understand, easier to use, and easier to maintain. But, I've never heard
anyone bill Zope as anything but extremely powerful (it is), free (it is),
and supported (it is).

> Sure, there is gold - but no one is going to give it to you.

TANSTAAFL.

[snip]

> And the few experts who are contributing their knowledge to the list
> are not making up for it all.

I have none of the confusion you do. I have none of the anger you do. I
have gotten plenty of good, solid answers from this list. Somewhere, we
differ.

> Zope is supposed to be easy and do all the work for me, so I can just
> drop in pre-made products/modules/classes or whatever.
> You know, assemble-your-own-site.
> Well, you really can't do that! Not easily. Not using all the 
> capabilities I was hoping. Not in a reasonable amount of time.

Zope is an application server, a platform on which you can _BUILD_ your
own applications. I have news for you: There is NO product that lets you
just "snap" together your own site that does everything you would ever
want. It's called a panacea, and they don't exist.

Again, this is computer _SCIENCE_. Science is hard. If you don't like that
word, call it Software _ENGINEERING_. Engineering is hard. Whoever told
you it was easy deserves your anger, not Zope or DC.

> Reusability in Zope turns out, in many cases, to be no easier - and in 
> fact, harder - than reusing code in Perl, PHP, or other languages where
> the system is being made by an expert in his field.

I disagree. Reusing well-written products in Zope is easier than reusing
raw Python (thanks to the web interface and the Product architeture). And,
I would argue, reusing Python is at least _as easy_ as reusing Perl. So,
we can't be far off, here.

> Zope is no better than any other system requiring an expert.

So, so true. I don't think it aims to be. Nor do I think any application
server SHOULD.

[snip]

> Comments?  Is anyone else fed up?

Consider this my 2 cents. And no, I am not fed up. In fact, I am far from
it.

> Guy N. Hurst

--Jeff

---
Jeff K. Hoffman                                         704.849.0731 x108
Chief Technology Officer                                mailto:jeff@goingv.com
Going Virtual, L.L.C.                                   http://www.goingv.com/