[Zope] Proposal of forking the zope@zope.org list

[Jason Cunliffe]

----- Original Message -----
From: <complaw@hal-pc.org>

> I agree with Tim.  First, splitting the list would mean that we would have
to
> monitor more groups.  Second, I have learned a lot from the more
sophisticated
> uses simply by keeping up with this list-group and I doubt the newbie list
> would be nearly as rich as the current list.  Third (although I don't do
it
> enough) I can help the newbies with those basic questions that I used to
ask
> and in some small way contribute to the group.  It is that last (important
if
> not crucial) input that makes this list so attractive to the new users and
thus
> enables them to get up the rather steep learning curve that Zope offers.

This raises some good points.

Zope clearly does not a have a simple linear learning curve - you might say
it is an objected-oriented one with acquisition effects thrown in frmo tmie
to surprising time. One may have a  decent grasp of one area, but that may
be unexpectedly upset or enhanced by a dicovery of somehtnig new in another
topic. The size adn ness of this list is its own worst enemy and also its
gretest virtue IMO. So what to do?

Splitting I fear will be less niose, but also less signal.
True one could simply  join all lists, but then there is the lack of cross
fretitilization of ideas and know-how which seems so eessential to Zope
growth and learning.

Many list divisions, though well intentioned really seems to be asking for
trouble.
3 [4 max] as suggested by Andy is more suitable: , zope, zope-newbies,
zope-dev and zope-install is a better idea. I think it will improve things
somewhat but spread the *blurring* effect more horizontally.


#1 First and foremost, I want much better subject headers, with a consistent
set of useful keyword stype prefaces, so that I can set my Mail software to
group them nicely but still benefit from the richness of the list. For
example:

Subject:[zope-newbies] What does the Z in Zope stand for?
Subject:[zope-database] PoPy upgrade problems on BSD 7.9.x
Subject:[zope-ideas] ZGETMAIL product suggestion
Subject:[zope-products] ZGIS new version reads mapinfo data
Subject:[zope-DTML] How to sort nested DTML statemtents using properties
values?
Subject:[zope-ScriptsPython] returning formatted form inputs
Subjkect[zope-design] considering new etransport site in Zope - looking for
advice
Subject:[zope-OT] Can Zony Playstation run ZEO?
Subject:[zope-business] Zope site development and maintenteance pricing
Subject:[zope] etc etc

This means much smarter cataloging and indexing of all future zope lists
without really segregating the community.
Individuals have better freedom to select ignore, while benefitting from
more informative fast track scan reading of subject headers.

#2 But what I _really_ want are new ways to receive all the zope list mail
in smarter 'tree'-lile form where some topics are raw and verbose while
others are grouped and linked for a different kind of scanning and reaction.

Thus fewer top level contents in my mail box, easier search, faster review
of what is happening the zope world, and still retain detailed access to the
entire scope of the community's effort when I need it and vice versa.

What I am sugesting is take the best ideas from newsgroups and tree
intefaces adn addapt to the fast, direct minimal world of email lists.

Can anyone think of a good way to have both of these worlds:
minimal list splitting + rich subject headers?

Here's a strategy: Create the proposed rich multi-split list categories, but
merge them back in to one list before they get publicly circulated.

So you would mail to zope-ideas@zope.org or zope-business@zope.org but the
messages would be first merged with the correcttopic preface and then sent
to the zopelist.

But this alone is not enouch of an improvement:

The mailing list subscription interface should be modified so that people
can adjust the options for how the various sub-divisions are merged and
presented.

For example: Zopista'A' might set it up like this:
1. [zope-newbies] to return only a single daily archive message containing
subject header, urls to fetch them and some other handy statistics

2. [zope-database] as a single message containing a verbose archive of the
day's threads

3. same for [zope-business][zope-OT]

4. all others in nromal single non-digest verbose mode


...meanwhile zopista 'B' selects these options:

1.  [zope-dev],[zope-database] in regular verbose dierct mode
2.  all others in a set of single daily emails with short-form digest + urls

Hopefully Zope itself can be used to set this up and for managing the
subscription forms templates.

SUMMARY ADVANTAGES
- Plan for growth.
When newer split-topics are demanded, the system can accomodate them easily
without painful debates or disruptnig presonal and public habits, and
without breaking anything like catalogs or mail filter settings.

- Showcase.
Makes a great demo of Zope itself

- TrafficFlow
Reduces list traffic for FAQs, becuase it would be much easier to ask, find
adn respond

- Detail-On-demand. Does not segregate the community at source in. Instad
each individual can optmiize their mailflow to need and interest



Jason
___________________________________________________________
Jason CUNLIFFE = NOMADICS['Interactive Art and Technology']