[Zope] Re: [ZPT] ZPT advocacy

Tue, 29 May 2001 09:58:29 +0200

No, don't make it an open ZWiki. Take responsibility of it (lock it) and let
logged in Zope Members add comments at the bottom of the page.

If I ask you: "What is your little text about?" What would you answer then?
I meant that it isn't very clear what it's about or it's purpose. Why have
you written it and what do you aim to conclude?
Perhaps you should more precisly decide where you want to pour the cement
before we start reshaping it (with comments) when it has dried in the wrong
place :)

You mentioned CMF, not a product, but a framework. I see that more and more
products tend to store their "data" part in Python and "view" part in
templates of some kind.
That way you can use the "data" part as framework and rewrite the "view"
part yourself for your own needs. And that's a very very big step in the
right direction I reckon.

Take care, Peter

PS. Please don't cross post emails. Send only to zope@zope.org or only to
zpt@zope.org

Subject: Re: [ZPT] ZPT advocacy

> Hello lists,
>
> Thank you Peter for your feedback. I will transform the document
> to a Zwiki as you suggested. Trying to...
> Also I will change the slightly egocentric style
> used throughout. I think you're right about that. Thanks for
> mentioning. Perhaps we should rather try to turn the document into
> something usefull for anyone interested in Zope advocacy in
> general.
> At all I feel that it is still very uncomplete.
> And of course it is still no business-plan. But perhaps it will
> develop.
>
> Especially the argumentation (is there one? :-) is a bit selective.
> As you say all of the Zope subsystems and all the products that
> are included (pythontalk: batteries included) are of course the real
> strength of Zope.
> Still I also wanted to make a special case for ready to use off-
> the-shelf applications which are assembled of products and
> components, not replacing or competing with them.
> Of course this kind of application can't be a CM solution to a media
> company for example. But Tim Cook's FreePM is a nice example that
> there is a perceived market for solutions that dont't need this high
degree
> of customization: Well understood and standard business
> processes of a limited scope.
>
> But as this sort of discussion is not specific to ZPT, i'll
> leave it at this and open a wiki.
>
> Andreas
>
>
>
> Montag, 28. Mai 2001 16:17 you wrote:
> > Feedback on http://www.zope.org/Members/vallen2/
> >
> > It was easy to read because you shine of enthusiasm and optimism. That's
> > good, and this is the kind of text you want to send when you send
> > propaganda to a prospective client.
> >
> > But it's easier for me to complain so I'll do that.
> > It's alot of "me" and "I". That's alright, but is the article about you
or
> > Zope as a basis product for a developing Buiness plan?
> >
> > Your conclusion in the begining of the text summorizes: "Zope is all
about
> > a framework
> > for rapid Web-application creation and maintenance."
> > The work "rapid" weights heavly in that sentence. Maybe you should get
back
> > to that later in detail.
> > It is the same conclusion I use a lot when I'm describing Zope.
> > I say "Using Zope, you'll get more for your money because everything is
so
> > prepared for you. If you know what you want, you can save money by using
> > Zope"
> >
> > "Rapid creation and maintenence" also means "less bucks"; but maybe we
> > should leave the conclusion about what "rapid" means to people who apply
> > it.
> >
> > One thing that I thing you should mention more about content management
> > systems and so on is that when you install Zope you get ACLUsers, Lots
of
> > permissions, Basic Authentication (well tested),
> > encompassed-management-view-per-permissions and options to fully
customize
> > and control login (LDAP, MySQL UserFolder, NT Userfolder etc)
> > These are things that are taken for granted in Zope. And in the
ASP/JSP/PHP
> > world systems that "approach" the security whole of Zope cost thousands
of
> > pounds for companies.
> > I've seen new media agencies build impressive content management systems
> > for wellpaying large companies, but when I look at their content
management
> > system I think that they can be built in zope in 30 minutes by mastering
> > the www.zope.org/Products page.
> >
> > Business is a lot about money. And this is one of Zope's strongest
> > strengths, by just like you're saying being rapid. More on that please.
> >
> > Nothing more for moment.
> >
> > Well done.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Andreas Vallen" <vallen@gmx.net>
> > To: <zpt@zope.org>
> > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2001 2:03 PM
> > Subject: [ZPT] ZPT advocacy
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I've recently had an exchange with Peter Bengtsson about
> > > his nice ZPT/DTML - comparison page.
> > >
> > > Now he alerted me to the existence of a ZPT-mailing list and
> > > here I am.
> > > [Notice to evan: please mention the list under
> > > http://www.zope.org/Resources/MailingLists as that's where
> > > I and probably others have looked].
> > >
> > > I would like to draw your attention to that
> > > kind of business plan (pamphlet?) I hacked last night.
> > > While its premier aim is finding a way to do a business
> > > based on Zope, it contains some amount of ZPT-advocacy
> > > as well.
> > >
> > > And ZPT can use any support it can muster. So here's
> > > the relevant part. Head over to
> > > http://www.zope.org/Members/vallen2/ for the whole
> > > thing. If anyone thinks he can use it for propaganda ;-) do!
> > >
> > > see you,
> > > Andreas
> > >
> > >
> > > ---- start of excerpt
> > >
> > > ...
> > > (2) The second major problem we have is the separation of content,
logic
> >
> > and
> >
> > > presentation.
> > >
> > > "Long before solved" one should think regarding the wealth of
supposedly
> > > "Model-View-Controller" patterns in the application server domain:
ASP,
> >
> > PHP,
> >
> > > JSP and DTML.
> > >
> > > Not true! Most of you will know it: Above mentioned templating
mechanisms
> > > while better than Perl-cgiing at their time of birth have introduced
> > > their own plethora of problems. In fact it were the same old ones:
Logic
> > > inside presentation.
> > > While it is impossible to edit a cgi-script with a WYSIWYG-editor
editing
> > > these templates is not a pleasant experience either - if at all
possible.
> > > I as a Java-devotee have of course taken delight in JSP - until I used
it
> >
> > too
> >
> > > much. I have not coded in the other above mentioned templating
languages
> >
> > (not
> >
> > > even DTML), but I know for sure that the result is the same:
> > >
> > > They leave a hell of a mess.
> > >
> > > But good we have DC. Apart of creating our platform, one of the
> > > advantages
> >
> > of
> >
> > > having a commercial "mother" as an open-source community is that they
> >
> > often
> >
> > > better sense the shortcomings of the platform regarding its use by
people
> >
> > not
> >
> > > being fluent in all the languages of choice at any given moment (e.g.
> >
> > DTML).
> >
> > > And I assume that no designer wants to see or even learn
> > > "dtmlmethod(_.None,_)". God - not even I want to see something like
this.
> >
> > But
> >
> > > I think I have to: I'm a coder.
> > > So what did DC do?
> > >
> > > Short: they created the ultimate weapon. The solution. The thing that
> > > made
> >
> > me
> >
> > > think my business idea is feasible, no: damned to success:Page
Templates
> > >
> > > I'm not in a mood to explain them. Just go to the ZPT site. Simply
know
> >
> > that
> >
> > > they are a groundbreaking mechanism to separate logic, content and
> > > presentation in such a way that page-designers can reliably edit their
> > > dynamic pages inside any WYSIWYG-editor without having any problems.
> > >
> > > Contrast this to any(!) other of the established templating mechanisms
> >
> > which
> >
> > > will make these editors terribly confused and unusable, what is quite
> > > sure your fate if you don't happen to speak the language of the tools'
> > > company (Microsoft: ASP!, even Macromedia may cease support for
anything
> > > but CFML from Allaire Coldfusion (whom they bought) and JSP: Think
about
> > > choice Mr. IT-manager! No one got ever fired for choosing choice!
;-) )
> > >
> > > In some way the content<->logic separation is even better accomplished
by
> > > XMLC (a separation mechanism employed by the java application server
> > > "Enhydra"), which ZPT was inspired by, but enhydra XMLC lacks other
> >
> > crucial
> >
> > > features which in my opinion second it.
> > >
> > > I try to advertise ZPT because I feel many seasoned developers shun
this
> >
> > new
> >
> > > technology. Even DC seems to be afraid of saying DTMLers: "Stop coding
> >
> > DTML.
> >
> > > There's something new in town and it is vastly superior!"
Understandable
> > > - given the fact that zopistas like too hack and ZPT superficially (ok
> > > ... really - but only a bit) seems to have less expressiveness.
> > >
> > > But that's the same the new Python Scripts are also all about: Stop
> >
> > enmeshing
> >
> > > logic and content!
> > > The results are more but rewarding and as I said enabling my
business -
> > > because they tackle our second problem: separating the logic from the
> >
> > content.
> >
> > > ...
> > >
> > > --- end of excerpt
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > ZPT mailing list
> > > ZPT@zope.org
> > > http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zpt