[Zope3-dev] IMPORTANT RFS: Through the Web Site Development

[Luciano Ramalho]

On segunda-feira, jan 13, 2003, at 17:32 America/Sao_Paulo, Jim Fulton=20=

wrote:

> Luciano Ramalho wrote:
>> On segunda-feira, jan 13, 2003, at 15:33 America/Sao_Paulo, Jim=20
>> Fulton wrote:
>>> That is a wild guess. I wish I knew what the real numbers were.
>>>
>>  =46rom the wild-guess-dept:
>> I know personally about 50 people who make a living working with Zope=20=

>> full time in Brazil. No more than 5 of them have ever written a Zope=20=

>> product of their own. Many have tried to use ZClasses, with varying=20=

>> degrees of success.
>
> I wonder what percentage tries ZClasses, and, of those, what =
percentage
> was successful.

I don't know these percentages. I will ask around some more. ZClasses=20
have terrible warts and are also very poorly documented. The Zope Book=20=

barely touches them.

Here at Hiperl=F3gica we still maintain a lot of code in ZClasses,=20
because we developed our P=E1gina-1 publishing system with them. We even=20=

developed somthing we called GenericStories which are an easier way to=20=

create custom content objects. All in ZClasses, with lots of Scripts=20
(Python). All new development is being done in Python Products,=20
however. I used to teach ZClasses in Zope courses, but now I skip that=20=

topic, and use the time to teach more Python so that learners use ZPT=20
better.

>> I also know a much larger community who uses Zope, but not=20
>> exclusively, and none of them would ever take the time to learn=20
>> enough Zope to develop a product,
>
> Do you think that the software development process I described
> in  is equivalent
>
> http://dev.zope.org/Zope3/ThroughTheWebSiteDevelopment
>
> is equivalent to developing products?
>
> I would expect that it is much closer to developing ZClasses,
> bit without the warts.

I agree. The process you describe feels more like developing ZClasses.

>
> > although some have played with ZClasses. All of them
>> have ASP or PHP experience that they can use with Zope. For them, ZPT=20=

>> is worse than DTML, because ZPT forces them to use more Python,  and=20=

>> they
>> still think that learning Python is difficult or not worthwhile,
>
> So they learn DTML instead? I'm amazed.

I've never met someone who learned web development in Zope. If you come=20=

from PHP, ASP or ColdFusion, DTML is much easier as a first step. Soon=20=

enough, people get bitten by DTML, but the alternative seems to costly=20=

(one must learn ZPT and some Python to do all that DTML doeas). So they=20=

stick with DTML and slowly and painfully learn it's pitfalls. I don't=20
think learning ZPT and a little Python is harder than the=20
functionally-equivalent DTML, but this is a matter of perception. Only=20=

Python users know how easy Python really is, and how worthwhile it is=20
to learn even a little of Python.

However, DTML does have many warts also, and as I teacher, I've found=20
that people learn ZPT easier than they learn DTML, becuse ZPT is less=20
idiosyncratic. But to do with ZPT what they do in PHP or ASP, people=20
have to pay the price of admission, which is to learn some Python.

> Don't you think these people will just use scripts and pages in=20
> content space?

Yes, I think so. Please let me know what you mean by this question.

[ ]s
Luciano