[Zope3-dev] IMPORTANT RFS: Through the Web Site Development

[Jim Fulton]

Jon Whitener wrote:
> Jim:
> 
> Your responses seem to describe a Zope 3 world where either users restrict themselves to 
 > content-space scripts and pages, or they are full-fledged Python programmers who can hack
 > out a module for every purpose.

You seem to be suggesting that there is something difficult about
creating modules.  I don't understand why you think modules are so
hard to create or understand, especially the modules in Zope 3.

 > I think this neglects a large audience of Zope users,
 > and further, ignores one of Zope's most attractive features.
> 
> Joachim Werner nailed it directly on the head when he said:
> 
> 
>>If there are TTW ways of writing or adapting custom (real) Python classes,
>>nobody will miss ZClasses.
> 
> 
> Forgive me my ignorance: despite working in Zope nearly full-time for several months now, I have never created a full Python module, let alone a Zope persistent Python module. 
 > I don't even know what they look like (I've written a handful of Script (Python)s).

Maybe you should find out. They are quite simple.

> I'm going ahead, however, and assuming that (for any non-Python-programmer)
 > a Python module is less easy to create than that point-and-click thing everyone
 > wishes worked better, the ZClass.

I think that this is a bad assumption.

> Dider Georgieff makes a strong point I wish to second:
> 
>>I've used ZClasses with great success in this area (popoto), and now
>>that the new developments (CPS) are done (by a Zope company) in the
>>"right" way (python products, fs,...) i loose some great advantages i
>>had.
>>
>>Having best of both words in Z3 will make my IT manager day without any
>>doubt, and bring me back in control.

If I understand the advantages he was refering to, the ability to quickly
create a class and have it visable and active in the web site, you'll have
that.

I submit that you'll have that more easily with Python modules, templates, and
configurations that with ZClasses.

> I propose that the exciting and compelling *idea* of ZClasses should be revisited and reimplemented
 > in a way that allows Zope users to create Python modules with the ease and speed of current ZClasses.

Depending on what you want to do, I submit that creating modules is easier than
creating ZClasses.  Your whole argument seems to assume that there's something
difficult about dealing with modules, but you admit you've never looked at one.

> If I understand correctly, persistent modules would replace ZClasses, but you need to be
 > a Python programmer to create them.  ZClasses are easy and fast to create even for the
 > beginner, and allow people to simply create Zope objects that model their business realities,
 > but are buggy and fragile.

> Is there no middle-ground, or hybrid, between these two things?

Well, actually, there is.  We will provide the ability to define new content
types with a GUI that lets you define a schema for the content type and then
have a module generated for you. The module will contain the shema definition
and the definition of a class that defines the schema.

You will be able to define views for the class solely with templates, if you wish.


> (If you'd like my real world example of using ZClasses, I'll be happy to describe it upon request.)

That would be great. Maybe we can use it as an example.

Jim

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