[Zope3-dev] IMPORTANT RFS: Through the Web Site Development

[Gregoire Weber]

Hi Jeffrey,

Sorry Jeffrey, I didn't want to pour oil into fire!=20
I agree in >99% percent of your comments. I just wanted=20
to write like a non programmer/developer (possibly) sees=20
the world. And his sight is possibly not "correct" from=20
our point of view.

At 04:05 14.01.2003 -0700, Jeffrey P Shell wrote:
>*whew*  it's 4:00 in the morning as I'm wrapping this up.

I wrote my former mail at 2:30 in the morning :-)


>>     They're not interested in file system package stuff and
>>      do not know what all these directories are for and why some
>>      things are living in one directory and other things in other
>>      directoreis. So they won't be able to figure out why they
>>      should place what code in which directories to write a python
>>      product.
>
>Again, then why are they using Zope?  It's like a Visual Basic developer=
 who thinks that just by laying out an interface, they'll have an=
 application without realizing that there still needs to be some code to=
 glue it together.  There is a structure, it does matter, it has to matter. =
 Why?  So that it's not a shock to them later when they try to do something=
 *with* structure.

The Zope3s ZClass replacement has to care about that a kind=20
of "minimum structure" (I know I only have vaguely defined=20
'structure', what I mean is a kind of autogenerated skeleton).

Yes that's right they usually stuck at the point they have=20
to write app logic. A lot of ZClasses do not have very lot
of logic in there. Most if "Code" is UI related.


>>     So they never would write a python product!
>
>They would never write a Java bean.  But they'd sure like to use one. =20
>So those beans better be easy for bean authors to write and distribute.

That's important.


>You do know that this very code example will blow up in DTML, don't you? =
 [...]

I didn't realize that yesterday night :-( probably=20
because it was late and because I didn't use DTML
anymore since the introduction of ZPT.=20

I agree with all you've written there and that=20
DTML is a mess!


>>     At 17:59 13.01.2003 -0500, Jim wrote:
>>>My point was that for simple scripts and templates, they
>>>won't have to deal with modules or packages.
>>
>>      ... and which files get saved wherea nd why. They get
>>      simply saved!
>
>"simply" is an overused word.  If you don't know where things are, how are=
 you ever going to use them?

They see where the things are in the UI, but don't have to=20
know how they're represented in the filesystem and ZODB
(see also comment above).

>>     If I understood correctly you like new content types being
>>      created in a similar manner you program a macro in MS Word
>>      or MS Access. [...]
>
>[...] But just because you can click some things together in Access does=
 not mean you can maintain an Oracle database.  There's a big scary leap=
 between even Access and SQL Server that most users don't care to cross -=
 from either side of the platform.  Things are made to appear so easy on one=
 side that there's still that steep technology learning curve on the other.

To take your notation: "Oracle" and "Access" people solve different=20
problems in scale and complexity. Zope3 should be there for "Access"=20
people also.

>>  2. Let non programers do their stuff in DTML!
>>     [...]
>
>[...]=20
>=20
>But TAL wouldn't be too hard to explain to people who are getting used to=
 seeing things like:

Developers ("Oracle" people) surely use ZPT after having=20
looked at DTML and ZPT for half an hour. That's obvious.

But you should not try to squeeze the non programmers=20
("Access" people) in a too restrictive corset, in the
sense of: Use python! use ZPT! use ...!


>>      [...] "How to convert your DTML code into Zope Page
>>      Templates" or "Migration path from DTML to ZPT". [...]
>
>If they have to migrate, they won't do it.   Why learn something when you=
 know you're going to have to learn something completely different not too=
 far down the road?

No, no! No presure, they can use both but there is a good=20
tutorial about how to write ZPT from the DTML programmers=20
view.

I agree, it is not necessary to learn DTML after having=20
learned ZPT.

Gregoire
_____________________________________
Gr=E9goire Weber
mailto:gregoire.weber@switzerland.org