[Zope3-dev] Re: Zope 3 Roadmap thoughts

[Paul Everitt]

Jim Fulton wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Here is an update on my thoughts with respect to the timeline for
> Zope 3 releases:
> 
> For Zope 3x:
> 
>    - I'd like to release Zope 3x by September 1.
> 
>      This will be a production-quality release of Zope 3x.
>      It will not be compatible with Zope 2 data or applications.
> 
>    - I'd like to release Zope 3x beta 1 by June 1.
> 
>    - I'd like to release alpha 3 by May 1.
> 
>    - I'd like to release alpha 2 by March 1.
> 
> For Zope 3.0:
> 
>    Note that Zope 3.0 will provide support for migrating
>    Zope 2 data and applications to Zope 3. This will probably take the
>    form of migration tools, rather than direct backward
>    compatability.

Can you describe this more?  I'm not exactly sure the depth to which 
Zope 3 can migrate applications.

For instance, in Rotterdam I found out that the syntax has changed for 
getting parents in the request URL.  Will the migration machinery check 
for things like that and convert it?  (Note, there are probably a lot of 
little things like that used by people to build their sites.)

How about things like CMF and DTML?  For CMF, if I create three skins in 
my site with various layers and whatnot, will there be the logical 
equivalent to migrate it to?  For DTML, if it exists in Zope 3, I think 
its syntax will change.  Will people be able to migrate their existing DTML?

IMO, we need to set expectations on migration before we discuss shipping 
a production-ready 3x.  The discussion could have the negative effect 
that clients stop new Zope 2 deployments until they know what pain they 
are signing themselves up for.  If you think they won't figure it out, 
well, competitors in the RFP process will, and I doubt they will portray 
it in a kind light.

I've been talking to Kai Wu, a former engineering manager at ArsDigita 
who is now in the Zope community.  His lessons-learned on the transition 
to ACS 4 might be informative:

"""
The ACS never gained major momentum largely because, I believe, there 
were several major technology jumps (ACS 3, to ACS 4, then ACS Java, all 
within 2 years) that made it difficult for users and customers to keep 
pace and ultimately they lost trust in our management of the product. 
Even though we felt we had to upgrade the ACS "plumbing," of course this 
too-rapid rate of change entailed a host of other problems: missing 
documentation, missing functionality, client and user wait-and-see 
syndrome, and Faith That the Next Version Will Deliver Us (and users) 
 From Evil that causes undue optimism on delivery dates - and 
compromises on quality that come back to haunt you.

Zope2 and Plone let me do what I've always wanted with a web app 
framework: deploy a community and content-driven site quickly that looks 
great out of the box, with the knowledge that the technical engine 
underneath is powerful and flexible. I would hate to see a crippling 
loss of leadership and momentum around what already works and works 
well, with room to grow further still. With such a skilled and involved 
community, surely a way to continue wowing the world with 
Zope2/CMF/Plone can be balanced with a smooth introduction and long-term 
transition to Zope3.
"""

IMO, we should give some priority to investigate ways to manage the 
transition.  And we need to communicate more about this, so business 
people know what to expect, and feel comfortable using Zope 2, CMF, and 
friends.

>    - I'd like to release Zope 3.0 alpha 1 by Dec 1
> 
>    - I'd like to release Zope 3.0 beta 1 by Feb 1, 2004
> 
>    - I'd like to release Zope 3.0 by Mar 1, 2004
> 
>    This schedule will depend on the level of community desire for
>    and commitment to Zope 3.0.

Yep, well said!

> For Zope 2.0 and CMF releases:
> 
>    I expect Zope 2.0 and CMF releases to continue well into 2004.
>    Zope 2.0 releases could extend farther if there is community interest.

With 2.6.0 and 2.6.1 betas, we've had trouble getting the releases out 
the door.  We're having trouble, it seems, just in talking about the 
schedule.  Does Zope 2 have a BDFL?  If so, who is it, and will they be 
more active "well into 2004"?

>    I expect, as part of the migration effort, to start migrating some 
> Zope 3
>    technologies into Zope 2.  I don't want this to slow Zope 3 development,
>    so I don't expect much to be done on this until this summer.

On this point, I imagine I'm a contrarian on this list.  But I'm willing 
to slow development of Zope 3 in support of smoothing the transition 
through backporting and related activities.

IMO, business people (who think differently than zope3-dev folks) will 
evaluate this whole Zope2-Zope3 situation using different criteria than 
us.  I realize, though, that my opinion might be in the minority, so 
I'll try not to continually harp about it. :^)

--Paul