[Zope3-dev] Re: Zope 3 Roadmap thoughts

[Jim Fulton]

Paul Everitt wrote:
> Jim Fulton wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>>
>> Here is an update on my thoughts with respect to the timeline for
>> Zope 3 releases:
>>
>> For Zope 3x:
>>
>>    - I'd like to release Zope 3x by September 1.
>>
>>      This will be a production-quality release of Zope 3x.
>>      It will not be compatible with Zope 2 data or applications.
>>
>>    - I'd like to release Zope 3x beta 1 by June 1.
>>
>>    - I'd like to release alpha 3 by May 1.
>>
>>    - I'd like to release alpha 2 by March 1.
>>
>> For Zope 3.0:
>>
>>    Note that Zope 3.0 will provide support for migrating
>>    Zope 2 data and applications to Zope 3. This will probably take the
>>    form of migration tools, rather than direct backward
>>    compatability.
> 
> 
> Can you describe this more? 

Not really. The reason is that we made a concious decision not
to be distracted by backward compatability during the design of 3x.

...

> IMO, we need to set expectations on migration before we discuss shipping 
> a production-ready 3x.

I agree. That's why we bothered a long time ago to define 3x and 3.
people can expect a migration path. They can expect details of
this migration path to be worked out way ahead of time. They can't
know the details now and I'm certainly not going to delay planning
for 3x until the 3.0 migration details are known.

 > The discussion could have the negative effect
> that clients stop new Zope 2 deployments until they know what pain they 
> are signing themselves up for.  If you think they won't figure it out, 
> well, competitors in the RFP process will, and I doubt they will portray 
> it in a kind light.
> 
> I've been talking to Kai Wu, a former engineering manager at ArsDigita 
> who is now in the Zope community.  His lessons-learned on the transition 
> to ACS 4 might be informative:
> 
> """
> The ACS never gained major momentum largely because, I believe, there 
> were several major technology jumps (ACS 3, to ACS 4, then ACS Java, all 
> within 2 years) that made it difficult for users and customers to keep 
> pace and ultimately they lost trust in our management of the product. 
> Even though we felt we had to upgrade the ACS "plumbing," of course this 
> too-rapid rate of change entailed a host of other problems: missing 
> documentation, missing functionality, client and user wait-and-see 
> syndrome, and Faith That the Next Version Will Deliver Us (and users) 
>  From Evil that causes undue optimism on delivery dates - and 
> compromises on quality that come back to haunt you.
> 
> Zope2 and Plone let me do what I've always wanted with a web app 
> framework: deploy a community and content-driven site quickly that looks 
> great out of the box, with the knowledge that the technical engine 
> underneath is powerful and flexible. I would hate to see a crippling 
> loss of leadership and momentum around what already works and works 
> well, with room to grow further still. With such a skilled and involved 
> community, surely a way to continue wowing the world with 
> Zope2/CMF/Plone can be balanced with a smooth introduction and long-term 
> transition to Zope3.
> """

I think there are some big differences here. First, we've gone a long time without
a major change.  I certainly don't anticipate similar changes in the forseeable
future.

> IMO, we should give some priority to investigate ways to manage the 
> transition. 

It is a priority, but it's not something we're working on now.
We can't deal with all of the issues at the same time.

 > And we need to communicate more about this, so business
> people know what to expect, and feel comfortable using Zope 2, CMF, and 
> friends.

People should feel comfortable using Zope 3, CMF and friends.
ZC is still doing customer and product development with Zope 2.


...

>> For Zope 2.0 and CMF releases:
>>
>>    I expect Zope 2.0 and CMF releases to continue well into 2004.
>>    Zope 2.0 releases could extend farther if there is community interest.
> 
> 
> With 2.6.0 and 2.6.1 betas, we've had trouble getting the releases out 
> the door.  We're having trouble, it seems, just in talking about the 
> schedule.  Does Zope 2 have a BDFL?  If so, who is it, and will they be 
> more active "well into 2004"?

I'm the Zope Pope for Zope 2 and Zope 3.  Having said that, I'm happy to
see people in the community take more leadership. In particular, I;d love to
see someone step forward and volunteer to help with making releases.  There
is a lot of work that has to be done to make releases that sometimes makes
it difficult for ZC to promise dates.

I'm frankly not at all convinces that increasing the frequency of feature
releases is an important goal.  But we should be able to crank out bug fix
releases more frequently.

>>    I expect, as part of the migration effort, to start migrating some 
>> Zope 3
>>    technologies into Zope 2.  I don't want this to slow Zope 3 
>> development,
>>    so I don't expect much to be done on this until this summer.
> 
> 
> On this point, I imagine I'm a contrarian on this list.  But I'm willing 
> to slow development of Zope 3 in support of smoothing the transition 
> through backporting and related activities.
> 
> IMO, business people (who think differently than zope3-dev folks) will 
> evaluate this whole Zope2-Zope3 situation using different criteria than 
> us.  I realize, though, that my opinion might be in the minority, so 
> I'll try not to continually harp about it. :^)

Here's how I think the business community will be best served:

- Make a commitment to support Zope 2 for a fairly long time.  I think
   that ZC and the community together than stand behind this. I've tried
   to do that.

- Make a commitment to provide a migration path. I think we've done this.

- Minimize the period of uncertainty by moving Zope 3 forward as quickly as
   possible.

Jim

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