[Zope3-dev] Re: Zope 3 Roadmap thoughts
seb bacon
seb@jamkit.com
Wed, 29 Jan 2003 13:18:18 +0000
Paul - this is a timely set of observations.
The Zope 2 meme (to use a Paulism ;-) is gaining mindshare at an
astonishing rate. Misconceptions or ambiguities regarding Zope 3 could
massively disrupt the business requirements which are driving this
growth, and thereby cause problems for all of us who work with Zope on a
daily basis.
I know many others think this is crucially important. I, too, have
personally come across people who have been put off Zope 2 / confused /
scared by Zope 3.
But you are right, this is not the right forum in which to discuss these
matters. This is an important enough issue that I propose a Zope 2
migration working group, which will consider:
- Continuing support for Zope 2
- 'Branding' of Zope 3 for the community
- Upgrade paths, documentation, etc for Zope 2 -> Zope 3
I think it should have a new mailing list, because it is too important
to allow it to languish in a few isolated threads.
Does anyone agree, or will I be in a mailing list on my own?
:-)
seb
Paul Everitt wrote:
> Jim Fulton wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Here is an update on my thoughts with respect to the timeline for
>> Zope 3 releases:
>>
>> For Zope 3x:
>>
>> - I'd like to release Zope 3x by September 1.
>>
>> This will be a production-quality release of Zope 3x.
>> It will not be compatible with Zope 2 data or applications.
>>
>> - I'd like to release Zope 3x beta 1 by June 1.
>>
>> - I'd like to release alpha 3 by May 1.
>>
>> - I'd like to release alpha 2 by March 1.
>>
>> For Zope 3.0:
>>
>> Note that Zope 3.0 will provide support for migrating
>> Zope 2 data and applications to Zope 3. This will probably take the
>> form of migration tools, rather than direct backward
>> compatability.
>
>
> Can you describe this more? I'm not exactly sure the depth to which
> Zope 3 can migrate applications.
>
> For instance, in Rotterdam I found out that the syntax has changed for
> getting parents in the request URL. Will the migration machinery check
> for things like that and convert it? (Note, there are probably a lot of
> little things like that used by people to build their sites.)
>
> How about things like CMF and DTML? For CMF, if I create three skins in
> my site with various layers and whatnot, will there be the logical
> equivalent to migrate it to? For DTML, if it exists in Zope 3, I think
> its syntax will change. Will people be able to migrate their existing
> DTML?
>
> IMO, we need to set expectations on migration before we discuss shipping
> a production-ready 3x. The discussion could have the negative effect
> that clients stop new Zope 2 deployments until they know what pain they
> are signing themselves up for. If you think they won't figure it out,
> well, competitors in the RFP process will, and I doubt they will portray
> it in a kind light.
>
> I've been talking to Kai Wu, a former engineering manager at ArsDigita
> who is now in the Zope community. His lessons-learned on the transition
> to ACS 4 might be informative:
>
> """
> The ACS never gained major momentum largely because, I believe, there
> were several major technology jumps (ACS 3, to ACS 4, then ACS Java, all
> within 2 years) that made it difficult for users and customers to keep
> pace and ultimately they lost trust in our management of the product.
> Even though we felt we had to upgrade the ACS "plumbing," of course this
> too-rapid rate of change entailed a host of other problems: missing
> documentation, missing functionality, client and user wait-and-see
> syndrome, and Faith That the Next Version Will Deliver Us (and users)
> From Evil that causes undue optimism on delivery dates - and
> compromises on quality that come back to haunt you.
>
> Zope2 and Plone let me do what I've always wanted with a web app
> framework: deploy a community and content-driven site quickly that looks
> great out of the box, with the knowledge that the technical engine
> underneath is powerful and flexible. I would hate to see a crippling
> loss of leadership and momentum around what already works and works
> well, with room to grow further still. With such a skilled and involved
> community, surely a way to continue wowing the world with
> Zope2/CMF/Plone can be balanced with a smooth introduction and long-term
> transition to Zope3.
> """
>
> IMO, we should give some priority to investigate ways to manage the
> transition. And we need to communicate more about this, so business
> people know what to expect, and feel comfortable using Zope 2, CMF, and
> friends.
>
>> - I'd like to release Zope 3.0 alpha 1 by Dec 1
>>
>> - I'd like to release Zope 3.0 beta 1 by Feb 1, 2004
>>
>> - I'd like to release Zope 3.0 by Mar 1, 2004
>>
>> This schedule will depend on the level of community desire for
>> and commitment to Zope 3.0.
>
>
> Yep, well said!
>
>> For Zope 2.0 and CMF releases:
>>
>> I expect Zope 2.0 and CMF releases to continue well into 2004.
>> Zope 2.0 releases could extend farther if there is community interest.
>
>
> With 2.6.0 and 2.6.1 betas, we've had trouble getting the releases out
> the door. We're having trouble, it seems, just in talking about the
> schedule. Does Zope 2 have a BDFL? If so, who is it, and will they be
> more active "well into 2004"?
>
>> I expect, as part of the migration effort, to start migrating some
>> Zope 3
>> technologies into Zope 2. I don't want this to slow Zope 3
>> development,
>> so I don't expect much to be done on this until this summer.
>
>
> On this point, I imagine I'm a contrarian on this list. But I'm willing
> to slow development of Zope 3 in support of smoothing the transition
> through backporting and related activities.
>
> IMO, business people (who think differently than zope3-dev folks) will
> evaluate this whole Zope2-Zope3 situation using different criteria than
> us. I realize, though, that my opinion might be in the minority, so
> I'll try not to continually harp about it. :^)
>
> --Paul
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Zope3-dev mailing list
> Zope3-dev@zope.org
> http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-dev
--
[] j a m k i t
seb bacon
T: 020 7549 0520
F: 020 7490 1152
M: 07968 301 336
W: www.jamkit.com