[Zope3-dev] Re: [ZWeb] nzo: just for inspiration

[Shane Hathaway]

On Sat, 22 Mar 2003, Gary Poster wrote:

> Shane Hathaway wrote:
> <snip>
> > However, 
> > it's just one more reason that I see CSS tables as a loss rather than a 
> > gain, so in my own designs I will continue to use normal tables.
> 
> Somewhat unsurprisingly, Netscape has a section of DevEdge advocating 
> standards:
> 
> http://devedge.netscape.com/central/strategy/

Well, that site actually got the CSS tables right somehow.  Unlike most
CSS table sites, if it is rendered in a narrow window, it uses a
horizontal scrollbar.  It's difficult to see how they did it, but I guess
this is proof that it can be done.  Zope 3 needs to do the same thing.

> In it, they have a "Case Studies" section, in which ESPN and Wired folks 
> discuss their recent switch to fully standards-compliant XHTML and CSS. 
>   Both interviews specifically address the tables issue discussed here. 
>   The DevEdge redesign case study addresses it less directly, but also 
> is still worth a look.
> 
> While I have my own gripes about CSS-based design, I am very firmly in 
> the camp that prefers them, in the long run, to table-based, non-CSS 
> designs.  I was in the client-side trenches for pretty big sites at a 
> previous job, and CSS-based designs encourage significantly more sane, 
> more maintainable designs.  I found them to be a big win, over the long 
> run, in practice.
> 
> Which is not to say that the concerns raised in this thread are not 
> valid.  I just don't encourage going down the "table" road for a 
> long-term project such as the Zope 3 UI.  CSS-based designs have their 
> own flaws, but are a very significant improvement.

The interviews listed some reasons why CSS tables are better, but all of
them seemed more like reasons why layout should be modularized away from
content.  Zope already gives us that, so I feel like none of that 
reasoning applies here.

However, I remember designing with tables without Zope.  Yes, they were
very nasty to deal with.  In that light, I can see why people would find
CSS tables so much better, and why the industry will indeed move in that
direction.  I guess that means we should too. ;-)

I still take issue with the notion that CSS tables are more
"standards-based" than HTML tables.  HTML tables existed as a standard
before CSS tables.  The difference is that CSS tables provide a way to
express intent instead of manipulating pixels.  It's just a different 
standard.

Shane