IA for zope.org (was Re: [ZWeb] A forest of Zope communities)

Paul Everitt paul@zope.com
Mon, 04 Mar 2002 14:28:00 -0500

alan runyan wrote:
>>When Seb's survey comes out, one of the biggest things it will point to
>>is the need for, as Alan Runyan keeps saying, an information
>>architecture (IA) for zope.org.  People simply can't find anything, and
>>thus they use the search (which also is a sore point).
>>Over the last couple of weeks, I jotted down some questions that the
>>structure of zope.org should answer.  Things like "Who uses Zope?",
>>"What is Zope?", etc.
> where are these definitions?  lets get plone running on new.zope.org.  lets
> make sure FTP is available.
> and people understand how to FTP into the root of the new.zope.org and to
> their member folders.

I'd like to second Seb's plea for focus.  This paragraph just added two 
new items (plone and FTP) to Seb's list (IA and functional spec).

>>1) Sections.  We need to find some way to organize the enormous blob of
>>content into separate piles.  It will matter less if the separate piles
>>are disorganized.  At least people will intuitively find the right piles.
> well. Documentation and Resources 'sections' always confused me.
> I could never figure out where content would be ;) so the last statement
> isnt necessarily true.

Actually that's the point.  The old system of sections provided no help 
to you in getting in the right neighborhood.

Does anyone have suggestions on what the sections should be?

>>A section is simply a page that provides links and visibility on some
>>stuff pertaining to that section.  The section might or might not be a
>>placeful organizational concept (meaning, it might not be a folder with
>>all items in the section under that folder).
> I agree.
>>However, a section *should* have section owners that do the gardening.
>>This would be a key aspect to making the section idea work.
> yes
>>2) Site map.  IMO, a site map would really force us to put the 100 or so
>>most important items into a coherent place.
> thats fine.  we should figure out what the basic functional requirements of
> new.zope.org are.
> what are they?  seb ? :)

I believe that's what is on the table right now as item two of two on 
the task list.

>>Seb's survey also seems to emphasize that there are two classes of
>>visitor: those that don't know anything about Zope (and thus didn't fill
>>out the survey), and "developers that want zope.org to help them develop".
> *we need to have more polls on zope.org*  -- you have a huge community.  you
> can ask their opinion

Hmm, that's another item on the to do list.  If we want to do some 
polls, we should do them somewhere that polls already exist.  ZopeZen 
has polls, I believe.

> and get it back in a quantified way.  This is *extremely* important to
> keeping your thumb on the community pulse.
> is a mysql database setup on new.zope.org?

Not currently.

>>For these two classes of users, I have a series of bullets in a sidebar
>>for the home page.  This can be seen at my mockup page:
>>   http://www.zope.org/Members/paul/newzopeorg/index.html
>>I've spent some time working on a cleaner look than the existing
>>new.zope.org, but more important are the answers it has to some of the
>>IA questions.
> we need to cut the links by at least 50%.

I think there should be a limit of seven for each section.

>>If each of the links in the sidebar led to a very well written and
>>maintained page which provided the next level of links, then we'd be in
>>*much* better shape than existing zope.org.  Same for the site map.
>>If we also spent extra time with the three or four big ticket items
>>(packages, how-tos, case studies, etc.) then we'd be in good shape.
> sounds good.
>>To wrap up, I'm interested in feedback:
>>1) Does anyone agree that the next step is IA?
> we should get people use to going to new.zope.org

I don't understand this sentence.

>>2) If so, does everyone agree that sections and a sitemap are two good
>>first steps towards an IA?
> yes, but I think a site where people have access to change the system is
> even more important.

More important than plone, polls, and mysql? :^)

Why would we change the system when we have no agreement on how it is 
supposed to change?

>>3) If so, does anyone have a suggestion for the major sections?
> software, business, community, overviews?

Sounds like a good start.

> I really like 3 column layouts like http://oreilly.com/ or
> http://theregister.co.uk/

The homepage for the register is five columns.  O'Reilly Network is four 

>>Finally, I'd like to add that Lalo has converted those mockups to Plone:
>>   http://www.zope.org/Members/lalo/temp/mockup-zorg-1.html
>>   http://www.zope.org/Members/lalo/temp/mockup-zorg-2.html
>>   http://www.zope.org/Members/lalo/temp/mockup-zorg-3.html
>>   http://www.zope.org/Members/lalo/temp/mockup-zorg-4.html
> There is too much in the left nav boxes.  I like how PHP does 'What is PHP':
> .  It doesnt have large amounts of realestate and includes hyperlinks in its

Hmm, the "What is PHP" section probably takes up about as much space on 
php.net as it does on the mockups.

> description.  Yes, PHP is much less ambitious than Python or ZOPE ;p
> Pushing ZOPE means pushing Python. You know... ZOPE should be the portal to
> ZOPE and to Python.  I think
> they honestly shouldnt be inseperatable.  And it should be insinuated that
> if you get ZOPE all of Python is easily
> exposed to the web.

Are you proposing that we add this to text in "What is Zope"?

> What if ZOPE.ORG was a basic portal for  ZOPE and some Python?  I think in
> the selling of ZOPE you *must* sell Python.

Perhaps, but you've just massively expanded the scope of zope.org. 
We're struggling to keep up with what's on our plate now.  We can 
leverage Python, but I don't think it can be our job to foster parent 
another child.

>>If Alan or Alex are interested in participating in new.zope.org, I'm
>>interested in using Plone.
> of course!  Plone is pretty well-congealed at this point and I believe can
> be used with out too much hassle.
> in fact we will be release 0.9.9 PR5 in a few hours before I go out
> drinking.  I think everyone will be quite pleased with it.
> It will also have a minimally skinned Collector and Wiki ;)

I'm pretty pleased with it already!  How's the docs?  Is it too early 
for others to work with it?