[Zope3-dev] Re: [Zope3-checkins] CVS: Zope3/src/zope/app/browser/skins/rotterdam - template.pt:1.25

[Guido van Rossum]

> On Thu, 2003-05-01 at 14:56, Stephan Richter wrote:
> > On Thursday 01 May 2003 14:29, Tres Seaver wrote:
> > >   - Uncomment the XML navigation tree, because that change stripped out
> > >     essential functionality on purely esthetic grounds:
> > 
> > It cannot be that we have a checkin war about this, so let's
> > discuss it and resolve the issue.
> > 
> > As I see it, we have a alpha/beta release coming up, so we need a
> > stable UI. The current UI needs a lot of work, but I do not think
> > that we have many (if any) capable people people of doing it all
> > without table. So the result is a lot of unprofessional and broken
> > HTML/CSS.

[Tres]
> I am not arguing *for* messy look-and-feel.  I *am* arguing that
> stripping out functionality because the presentation is ugly is
> counter-productive:  nobody will fix it if they don't see it.

I didn't strip it out because it was ugly.  Lots of things in the
current presentation are ugly.  I stripped it out because it was
actively getting in the way of using the rest of the interface (and I
had no need for it so it felt safe to remove).

> > I totally agree with Guido, that it is unacceptable for us to have
> > text run over boxes and I experienced myself that the overflowing
> > navigation tree was hiding important information (when I worked in
> > Mozilla). There are many other places in the code where this
> > happens.
> > 
> > So we have two choices in my opinion:
> > 
> > (1) Lobby in the community for some UI experts to join in for this 
> > task/project.

Seems they all have disappeared since the Rotterdam sprint. :-(

> I tried to bring it up in discussion, and got unacceptable responses
> ("you can just type the right majyk URL").
> 
> > (2) Lower the UI requirements to a HTML/CSS level we all can
> > handle, i.e. use tables and basic CSS.
> > 
> > >     o The XML tree is the only reasonable navigation device for
> > >       the Zope3 UI.  Requiring people to type ".../++foo++..." 
> > >       URLS is a *way* bigger usability hit than the
> > >       bleed-throughs.

When do you have to type ++foo++?  To get to the service manager,
simply click on the text "Manage Local Services" in the action menu
just below the ZMI tabs.  This also takes care of authentication for
me.  But maybe your situation is different?

> > This is not true. Breadcrumbs are doing just fine. And anyhow, the
> > nav tree does not work in to Konqui. I want the old Z2 version
> > back. :-(
> 
> Breadcrumbs do *not* supply the same need.  They give you no way to
> browse to any part of the site except your immediate parents.  If we
> need to manage the tree's overflow better, then we can look at other
> strategies:  put it into an <iframe>, for instance.

Right.  Apparently you know enough HTML to fix this, so please fix it
if you want the feature.

> > >     o The tree provided the only canonical means of triggering
> > >       authentication.  Requiring the user to edit the URL (adding
> > >       '/@@manage' in this case) is again a huge usability hit.
> > 
> > I think using the nav tree for authentication is not the right
> > method either, so why don't we implement a login/logout?
> 
> Who was talking about limited amounts of developer time? :)

--Guido van Rossum (home page: http://www.python.org/~guido/)